...About Allyship Regression?

Transcript available here.

It's been over a year since will talked to y'all about how to be good allies (Season 1, Episode 1) and yet it seems like many have fallen off the allyship train. So we're back to remind you that this is a long game and give you some tips on how to keep the momentum going.

Resources
The Pervasive Reality of Anti-Black Racism in Canada (BCG)
Being Black in Canada (CBC)
Being Black in Canada (HotDocs)

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

Find us: @dothekidsknow (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok)
Email us: dothekidsknow@gmail.com
Tip us: patreon.com/dothekidsknow
Newsletter: tinyletter.com/dothekidsknow
Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Kristen  0:15  
Hey kids and welcome to Do the Kids Know? That is this podcast where we talk about oh god race media pop culture and politics in triple K Canada. Ha. I remembered as you can tell I'm not reading from the script and therefore I have no idea what we're doing today but it'll be fun times. In case you don't know who I am. Oh god. I am one of your hosts Kristen and on my screen is my good friend Prakash. 

Prakash  0:43  
Hello. 

Kristen  0:44  
Sup. Today we are going to develop this topic as we speak because I have things on my mind on my chest. That could do with some discussing with a friend so that's what we're gonna do today. But first, our fun little rude game. Do you have a read that co-star gave you this week that you would like to share with the kids?

Prakash  1:10  
Yes, I'm reading it live. Let's see what what I was told this week. This one is rude. It just says from Sunday. It just says less thinking more doing.

Kristen  1:22  
Oh, whoa, whoa, but you're already doing so much. How can you do more?

Prakash  1:28  
I'm tired. I don't know how long and how many times I've said the phrase team do less

Kristen  1:35  
For real.

Prakash  1:36  
As a manifestation. I'm trying to like secrete it you know, like speak it into existence because I am doing anything but less. 

Kristen  1:45  
Honestly. 

Prakash  1:46  
I guess that means more. I've been doing more.

Kristen  1:50  
You've been doing so much more that you've had to tell people no. Which is a foreign concept to you.

Prakash  1:55  
Truly, yeah, I'm on my Shonda Rhimes year no like.

Kristen  2:00  
But are you really? Because we're at the end of 2021 and we've been in team do less all year.

Prakash  2:06  
I know well now well listen, I think I think I think the podcast is what really suffered from team do less because now we're like abandoning scripts. We are like the editing is haphazard. It is what it is. Like new podcast name, raw thoughts. 

Kristen  2:22  
Ew. Don't like that. Do not cosign. No. 

Prakash  2:28  
Hey, y'all and welcome to raw thoughts. 

Kristen  2:31  
No! Why did you do that?

Prakash  2:31  
Where Kristen and I just be raw talking and raw dogging discussions on media pop culture in Canada.

Kristen  2:40  
Wow. Never again okay.

Prakash  2:43  
That's that's the only fans version of this podcast.

Kristen  2:48  
Oh my god ew, no, I don't like it.

Prakash  2:50  
We do it in lingerie.

Kristen  2:53  
Do you own lingerie?

Prakash  2:54  
No. 

Kristen  2:55  
See? 

Prakash  2:55  
I could get some though. Its just like me in a full body like onesie or something.

Kristen  3:05  
I do own some onesies. They're comfortable.

Prakash  3:08  
Anyway I'm so sorry. What was your co-star read this week.

Kristen  3:13  
Before I talk about my co-star read I just want to take us back to our original intention for this podcast was just supposed to be us be two people talking and then we put it out there on the internet. So like we're just going back to our roots is really what it is.

Prakash  3:27  
Yeah, I don't know who we thought we were trying to do research as if we're academics which we...

Kristen  3:31  
Which we are. I'm confused.

Prakash  3:34  
...are. 

Kristen  3:34  
What?

Prakash  3:34  
As two people who went from being students who are now university employees.

Kristen  3:38  
I'm like what are you talking about?

Prakash  3:41  
I hate us. 

Kristen  3:45  
I mean, I'm tangentially... I'm not actually a university employee. I'm tangentially connected to somebody is.

Prakash  3:52  
You are fully one of the governing people on a university funding committee. 

Kristen  3:57  
Shit. Oh my god. 

Prakash  4:00  
Never forget. Kristen is screaming into the floor. Yeah. 

Kristen  4:08  
Okay, but like actually how did I forget that because I literally missed a meeting yesterday because life got in the way.

Prakash  4:13  
I don't know you could've forget that because I applied for funding from the organization so...

Kristen  4:20  
Oh my god that I potentially could have been on the selection jury for but said no, yeah. Anyway, we're gonna move on. We're gonna move on cause I'm doing too many things. How did costar read me this week? Yeah, I can do today. So today at 10:48 co-star told me stop trying to fit your feelings into a one size fits all box. And I said that's rude. 

Prakash  4:44  
I... Okay. 

Kristen  4:48  
That goes hand in hand with my sister and my sister's therapist continuing to tell me to feel my feelings and I hate it.

Prakash  4:55  
Hold on. Why is how why and how is your sister's therapist telling you how to feel?

Kristen  5:01  
The therapist isn't telling me. The therapist is telling my sister who is then telling me and so she wouldn't be telling me if not for the therapist. And so the therapist is telling us both.

Prakash  5:10  
But the advice is for your sister. 

Kristen  5:12  
Well, yes, but we think and don't think the same. And therefore, the advice that is good for her is also good for me. But good is relative cause we both hate it.

Prakash  5:27  
What's our topic today? I can't get into this any further.

Kristen  5:34  
Oh, my God. Okay. So like I said, the topic today isn't a real topic in that, like, I haven't actually researched. It was not what was on our topic list. But it is what we are going to talk about today, because I've been feeling it in my spirit. And it's been making me very upset. But like background upset, something that I haven't been able to acknowledge. But Patrisse Cullors, who's one of the founders behind the Black Lives Matter movement, posted a series of tweets that get to the heart of I think what has been bothering me and so that's where we're gonna start today. 

Kristen  6:11  
So in a series of tweets, she says, "we're in the great regression. After any large uprising, that challenges systems comes a coordinated attack on the movement. And after that, a regression back to the status quo. Since last summer's uprisings right wing groups have launched so many disinformation and misinformation attacks meant to confuse and discourage folks. They do this to see distrust surrounding anyone they see as a messenger or a threat. And it's working. Since last summer's uprisings, corporations, organizations and politicians that pledged their commitment to challenging racist structures and uplifting black voices have been silent. Since last summer's uprisings, celebrities and influencers who pledged to listen, learn and act have also gone silent, or distanced themselves from the conversations, they promised to continue. Our work and movement must remain diligent. If we want to end white supremacy, patriarchy and this punitive system, we have to stay engaged, stay aware, stay focused."

Prakash  7:15  
I'm nodding my head. 

Kristen  7:16  
Mm hmm. And so the thing for me that this really hit on is like the true just discrepancy between where people were in social justice understandings and movements and education at the beginning of 2021. And where they are now, at the end of 2021. It's, it bothers me, it really bothers me. Because there's so many, there's so many reasons for it, that like, people are able to continue to ignore all of these concepts in a way that they had been before last summer. And the fact that it took a year for them to be able to go back to the status quo and go back to ignoring these social issues, and go back to like, my little bubble of privilege is good enough for me, and I don't need to care about other people outside of my bubble angers me a little bit.

Prakash  8:16  
Yeah. I think I feel very similarly. It's like one of those disappointed but not surprised situations.

Kristen  8:26  
Yeah. But I want to be surprised, like I don't. And this is like, I think also why like, I'm grappling with my feelings about this, because I am a pessimist and a realist, and so like, I don't expect anything from anyone so that everything that they give me is a surprise. And yet, I'm annoyed. And I'm angry. And I'm surprised that so many people have been able to and allowed to not continue the things that they've committed and pledged to doing. Like, I would not that I actually want this. But I, I do kind of want to go back to being annoyed by the white people who are tangentially connected to me asking me about social justice things and Black things and racism things because I don't have another Black person to turn to. Like, I know that they're no longer asking me for those things, because they're no longer thinking about those things, because they don't have to, because they're back to their status quo. Meanwhile, I am still a Black woman trying to navigate all these systems of oppression that are affecting me every day and nobody gives a fuck anymore. And it's really frustrating, because they didn't give a fuck before. And then they pretended to give a fuck and we were all like, don't be performative in your fucks actually do something about your fucks, and they were like, We will, we will do this. And it took them a year before they went back to not doing anything. So now they're not even being performative. They're just not doing anything. Which is frustrating.

Prakash  9:47  
Listen, I told y'all last year, and I'll tell y'all again, DEI is a scam.

Kristen  9:52  
It is, but pay me to help your DEI. Yeah, I can do that.

Prakash  9:56  
Yeah, and this is why it's a scam. because there's work that, you know, in theory, people were really gung ho about really interested in engaging with in 2020, and particularly the summer of 2020. Like the reasons why I feel that this, like, we've such like a regression in people's interest in doing work of anti racism, particularly anti-Black racism is because the foundations of the work that people engaged in at the beginning or during 2020 were not the kind of work that lent itself toward long term or structural or really even, like, really deep intrapersonal change. People like, oh, I read Robyn D'Angelo's White Fragility. 

Kristen  10:45  
Like, great, how are you going to apply that in your life? 

Prakash  10:48  
A book about racism written by a white woman. And of course, that was the number one selling book. 

Kristen  10:52  
Of course, it was, because, okay, see. And then, of course, it was because they, at the same time that they're like, I'm willing to do this work, they're also not willing to truly be uncomfortable as they do that work. And that's why it cannot be sustainable. That's why it doesn't ever go beyond, I'm going to read this book. Because you have to actually do something. After you read the book, you have to actually internalize the book, you have to actually think about the internal biases that you have, and the privileges that you have, and the ways that that mean that you oppress other people. It means you have to sit in your discomfort for a period of time, before you can actually do something. And there's just so much more work that comes with social justice that people told us they were going to do. And it didn't even take 12 months before the pessimists like me, were proven correct.

Prakash  11:47  
I think for me, one of the first like red flags that this was like never going to take place or never going to take hold was when the November election, November 2020 election in the United States, when, once again, majority of white women voted for Trump. After having spent the last like, you know, five months, allegedly reading and educating themselves about racism, and then continued to choose like the more racist of the two racist parties.

Kristen  12:18  
Because they will... Until you are willing to be in a state of sustained discomfort and be uncomfortable while you work through your internal biases, you will always choose what makes you more comfortable. Always. Especially for white women who have grown up in Western society that has coddled them from the beginning, while also teaching them that they don't have agency from the beginning. So on the one hand, they can weaponize their tears, and they can weaponize their emotions, because as soon as they do that everybody is supposed to care for them. But on the other hand, they don't actually have the energy and sustainability to do anything, because they're women. And if they don't sit in even just the discomfort of that, how can they sit in the discomfort of the racism that they are unintentionally perpetuating by being comfortable in a system that was built for white men.

Prakash  13:17  
And I'm sure that we've talked about it before on this podcast, about how a lot of the roots of white feminism and a lot of white feminist ideology has really just been about having the same for white women to have the same privileges and power of white men, and not for actually disrupting the structures of patriarchy, of white supremacy, of capitalism, that had fundamentally oriented our society such that white men held all the power and privilege. And I think too in terms of the sort of, like failure, for a lot of people of really embodying anti-racist principles, the work of anti-racism within their organizations, in which they work, within their schools, within their homes, has really been because people think, I think this is like not particularly to like white women or white people or, you know, I think this is a phenomenon really across the board, including and especially in academia, that by reading about other experiences, by reading about theory, or by reading theory, or by like the work of quote, unquote, education, that by being educated, this alone will allow for systemic or structural change. And let me just like, rewind back to my rant in that first episode of season three, like a month ago now, when I told y'all that, and that that was not true, that that was not gonna work. It was never gonna work. Because while, education is an important, very first step, because you can't change or like you don't know what you don't know. And so education will help you realize that you don't know. But then reading will not be the way through which transformative action takes place and I'm sorry for everyone who like loves reading, but... 

Kristen  15:13  
I'm not sorry for them. 

Prakash  15:14  
It can't be the be all end all.

Kristen  15:15  
No, they need to do something with the things that they have read. Reading gives you new knowledge and you need to do something with that new knowledge. That's that's the piece that's missing.

Prakash  15:25  
And so I think like, you know, people are probably going to ask like, okay, what is it now? I read it I understand that anti-racism or the anti-Black racism is a thing. I get to this country has been bad to the coloureds. But now what do you want me to do, Kristen? What do to expect me, Jean Francois, to do? 

Kristen  15:45  
Okay, Jean Francois. Go talk to all your other little white friends and your white Quebecois friends and get them on the same page as you. So that they are not unintentionally enact doing racist acts and microaggressions on the Black people, on the Brown people, and the Asian people that they interact with on a daily basis. Interrupt all instances of racism that you see. Interrupt all instances of sexism that you see. Interrupt all -isms that you see, because you Jean Francois, I'm assuming is a white Frenchman, are in a position of power. And therefore you doing that takes the onus off of the individual who is being oppressed, to correct the form of oppression that is being enacted on them. You, Jean Francois, organize events, with your friends where you can you know, organize a book club with all your little French Queb friends, where you'll talk about books and these theories and these ideas so that you can enact that knowledge so that all of them can then enact that knowledge. So that we are now spreading the things that you have read instead of them just sitting in your body. 

Kristen  16:45  
Talk to your friends, when you feel uncomfortable about something that you have done, or this new knowledge that you have learned, so that you can all be uncomfortable together and learn it together. And don't have to ask your one Black friend or your one Brown friend about their opinion on this uncomfortable feeling that you have. Do something with your discomfort. When something makes you uncomfortable. Think about why. Think about the things that are in you that you have learned that you have internalized that you need to stop doing. Do something with your guilt, because I'm sure that that makes you feel bad. And I'm sure that you hate that the society is this way, but do something with the guilt that you feel. Donate your money to organizations on the ground who are doing the work of trying to no longer replicate these oppressive systems. Just do things. Give people who are not you money. Talk to people who are like you to get them to stop thinking the way that you used to think or the way that you still think sometimes better trying not to think that way. But don't just read a book and be like, Wow, that book was hard. Oh my god, I understand so much more now. Share that understanding with other people. Share your wealth with other people who are not like you who are more marginalized than you who are more oppressed than you. And then you can start to make a change.

Prakash  18:02  
Hard agree for all those, all the suggestions. And because I think too what has been maybe one of the the kind of issues I think that people have been facing in terms of doing this work or continuing the work over time is this idea that, you know, the work that we produce, especially those people who are working in around, it might not be anti-racism, but around like social activism, people in the nonprofit industries, people in academia, artists, whatever, people who are already kind of like, within this, like a realm of like needing to be socially conscious. Or people who like heard this, you know, maybe for the first time, the royal like call to do the work of anti-racism in 2020, 2021. And we're like, wow, okay, I'm going to make a change, I want to make a difference. And I think that there is seemingly this pressure to do things that are public, that are visible, that show Hi, I know something, I did the thing. So this could be posting a black square on Instagram. This could be forming an anti-racism committee at your workplace or a Diversity Committee. This could be reading a book. Doing a book club one time. And there's nothing wrong, really, in theory with doing any of these things. But the issue is that they don't lend themselves into long term action. And this is how I'm going to break down or like I'm suggesting, like breaking down thinking about working towards transformative social action. So the first level is the individual. So you yourself need to, like know, what the issues lie, what the issues are. And like what is your role in ecosystem of these issues? So for instance, racism, like you need to understand that racism exists on multiple levels. It's not just being hate crimed. It has all these other things. I've talked about ad nauseum many times before. And I think people then want to jump into this next echelon, or like a really high echelon of like, okay, but now how will I transform the country? I'm gonna like March with BLM. 

Kristen  20:11  
There are so many steps between I've read this book and the country is different now. There's... Woah. 

Prakash  20:17  
I know that the leap is huge. There are many steps in between. But I think that there isn't really a clear articulation of what these steps are. And then people got lost and then they like get confused and then they stop. So I think what you mentioned about like Jean Francois, or like blank, anyone if you listener listening in...

Kristen  20:33  
Also sorry, if you're listening and your name is Jean Francois.

Prakash  20:37  
No one listening is named Jean Francois. I can almost I can promise you that. If that is the case, I will like, I don't know, donate $100 back into this podcast. Or like, I don't know Patrons, like, if you're Jean Francois and you're listening. And you can prove to me that you like screenshot you're... 

Kristen  20:54  
Like that's your government name? 

Prakash  20:55  
...your thing that is your government name, like screenshot your passport, but like screenshot, like your Spotify or whatever, however you listen to this, like, you know, I want to see that, that ecoute or whatever beside the podcast. And I will like, donate $100 to an organization at the patron's choice. 

Kristen  21:11  
Alright. 

Prakash  21:13  
This comes out in February, you have until April.

Kristen  21:16  
Yeah, we got to put a cap on that. It's not like 10 years from now Jean Francois' like, Hey, you owe an organization $100.

Prakash  21:24  
Yeah. Yeah, I will. Yeah, I will. I will up until three Jean Francois. If there are three Jean Francois who have by April, May I listen to this episode, give $100 to that organization. I will do I'll do up to three $300 up to 3 Jean Francois. That's my commitment to, to my my assuredness that there are no Jean Francois' who are listening. Because I feel like everyone who listens are people that I know. I don't know any Jean Francois.

Kristen  21:55  
I mean, I thought that but then we did that poll on Instagram. And there were a lot of people we didn't know who did. Anyway, anyway.

Kristen  22:02  
Yeah. 

Kristen  22:02  
Complete aside. 

Prakash  22:03  
In Saskatchewan. And that's not where, that's not Jean Francois live. I'm assuming. 

Kristen  22:08  
Good point. 

Prakash  22:09  
Anyway, this has been a tangent. So going back to my, you know, my my Echelon situation. Yeah, situation, the tiers. So I think what you mentioned was like, really clear as like a low tier pass the self-education phase, is the really like, micro sort of like, not public community work of being like, Hey, who is in my immediate community, AKA your like close, family and friends, maybe your coworkers depending on your work situation, and how comfortable you are with them. Because yeah, it's like, maybe you had the time, the resources, the energy, the literacy skills to read a book like White Fragility, or read Angela Davis, or Robert Maynard, or whoever. But that is not the case for everybody. And that's like, not anyone's fault. So, I mean, some people choose not. Some people chose ignorance, but a lot of people, like just, you know, but if, for whatever reason, are not able to do to do this. 

Prakash  23:05  
We're recording this before the holidays. I know this comes after. But the holidays is often like a fraught time for a lot of people having to deal with their like family members who might be a little bit ignorant when it comes to certain political issues. And that can be a very tough situation. And I advocate doing what you need to do to take care of yourself, first and foremost, but, if you're really interested in doing this work, and especially if you're white, but other people too, you really do, in my opinion, have some form of obligation or responsibility to do the difficult work of engaging with these people who are maybe a little bit further to the right than you are.

Kristen  23:43  
Because if you don't do it, then they're going to enact violence and oppression on some unsuspecting person who they will definitely not listen to about the violence and oppression that they have enacted.

Prakash  23:58  
Because it's really easy to like, you know, get together with like your good friends who probably all have the same. Because like, you know, you choose your friends, the friends that you have, you have less of a choice, of the people who are in your family and the people who are in your other kinds of operational environments like a workplace. But yeah, if you are not going to be the one who reaches out to them, it's unlikely that they're going to have another point of access. And that is that those are conversations that can be very difficult. That can be very uncomfortable. But again, like Kristen said, right at the beginning like it's about sitting in that discomfort and working with and through it. Because me and Kristen, you could share this episode with them with your like, Great Aunt Helen or whoever. She is not gonna care.

Kristen  24:41  
If she won't listen to you her like blood. You think she's gonna listen to Black and Brown people tell her she needs to be better? That's funny.

Prakash  24:56  
You're telling me that there are two there are two brown queers in this in this here iPhone. 

Kristen  25:01  
Right? 

Prakash  25:01  
And I need to listen to what they say. Yeah.

Kristen  25:05  
So moving past the levels that we have established, what's next?

Prakash  25:09  
Yeah, you're done intrapersonal work, you start doing this, like micro community interpersonal work. I think here too, like, this is also sort of like the tear in which donations come into play. And we've talked again, one of these, we've talked a lot about before that philanthropy exchanging of money is not going to be the way forward. But it is a way to do this work of support when you don't have access to it. So one thing I'm not into is like, people out of the woodwork, which happened to both you and I, Kristen, you and I, at the onset of the BLM, resurgence being like, hey, Prakash, Kristen. I mean, this didn't happen to me but it happened to you being like, Do you want some money? Are you Are you okay? 

Kristen  25:53  
Are you okay? 

Prakash  25:53  
Let me know if there's, let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Kristen  25:56  
Like you didn't do anything for me before why would you do something for me now? 

Prakash  26:00  
A lot of these things for me, it's more just like, oh, no, like, Where can I learn more about racism or whatever. And I'm like, okay, and then hence the podcast. Truly this is how the how this came to be. This podcast is the book I've been meaning to write. But I hate writing and I can't read. 

Kristen  26:15  
So I hate writing says the person who just graduated with a written thesis from Concordia, but, okay.

Prakash  26:22  
I told you, I wrote a thesis and I lost my ability to read and write. Like I am, I'm illiterate now. I can only do audio. 

Prakash  26:30  
But I think this leads us into the next tier where I think that the financial contributions are important, not only because of the the exchanging of money, but because the idea of supporting without, like being the face of or without taking over. Because when you are financially donating, you become a silent partner in the activities of an organization in which you have no decision making power, you have no opportunity to like harm anybody. But you are contributing to something that is going to help people who know what they're doing people who are experts in these fields of community organizing, of doing anti-racism work of being able to like engage with pushing progressive policy. This is a way of doing that work of like supporting that work without having to you yourself, try to, cause again I mentioned that very top tier of doing that, like big national level infrastructural change making work. Like you as someone who is like way down here on these tiers, someone who's new to this work, or not going to be able to get there in one year. But I think I think also there's probably part of the problem of like journalism being like, nothing big changed in the past year, BLM was a failure. Not in those words, but I feel...

Kristen  27:45  
It's like actually its still continuing.

Prakash  27:48  
It's not. This is a long game. This has been a long game. This is this didn't start last year. This has this has been going since time. Because I think too, there's so much at least this is what I saw a lot of like eagerness for a lot of these organizations, nonprofits, organizations, universities to be like, here we are doing this work in solidarity with. But I'm like, are you like, are you giving any of your financial dollars to these grassroots organizations? Like, it's great that you're having all of these like, panels and speakers, and those people are getting honoraria hopefully. And that's great. But like in terms of people who are doing...

Kristen  28:22  
The fact that you have to say, hopefully, because we can't guarantee that everybody was getting honoraria it's like, oh, I'm very upset. You can continue, I just had to...

Prakash  28:31  
And if those honoraria are not generous, you're still doing it wrong.

Kristen  28:37  
Just the benchmark is so low. It's so low. 

Prakash  28:43  
So low, and yeah, it's like, I understand too that, like, with how capitalism is oriented in this country, it is not easy to be able to like donate your time to like, go to that BLM office downtown Toronto and be like, Hi, like, what can I do? How can I help? But there are ways you can do this work still by like, yeah, financially supporting. Also going back to going back one more tier, or like okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna like renumber these tiers. Tier zero is education, right? Baseline, tier one, you talk to your friends, your family and be like, Yo, racism is not It. Tier two, maybe up things a little bit, you know, your coworkers with a little bit more risk involved. Be like hey, manager like, or like let me discuss why there are no people of colour in positions higher than middle management why is this. Or like, everyone we've hired this year has been white, like, or there are no Black folk, or there are no queer folk, whatever, like or there are no people with like multiple identities or whatever, like multiple marginalized identities like that is like one small level of institutional structural critique, that might have like, long term ramifications. Hopefully for the better for the organization but puts you at a little bit of risk. Maybe depending on who you are. But again, again, this theme of sticking with the difficult uncomfortable feelings and and capital W work. The next tier financial contributions, the silent support. If you can go to like the march or the protest or whatever, like those all those are great.

Kristen  30:18  
Those are definitely great because your body people will people police will think twice about doing violence against.

Prakash  30:25  
Yeah, like literally you should be there to shield other people.

Kristen  30:28  
Yeah, that'd be nice. Thank you.

Prakash  30:30  
Not telling you to get shot. But I'm telling you, it's like literally just like, you're... That's not what I'm saying. Metaphorical shield. Like, if if there if there's a large group of white people, they're not gonna be faced with the same hostility as a large group of Brown people. 

Kristen  30:47  
Yes. 

Prakash  30:48  
Is what I'm trying to say. 

Kristen  30:49  
Yes. 

Prakash  30:49  
But, but if you just see bullets, you best believe that I'm pulling you in front of me. You will take this bullet for me.

Kristen  30:57  
But it's also that if they do, they will get better health care than you would so is that bad?

Prakash  31:02  
I don't have insurance. Yeah, it's true.

Kristen  31:06  
But even if you had insurance, nurses and doctors...

Prakash  31:09  
Oh, the service. Yeah.

Kristen  31:10  
...will take better care of a white body, then they would have Black or Brown one.

Prakash  31:14  
Throwback to medical racism. Cause we talked about it on the podcast.

Kristen  31:16  
We did. Anyway. Continue. The next tier.

Prakash  31:19  
Next tier, I think I think once you have put your body on the line, then and only then do I give you permission to talk to people of colour. I don't I don't like until you've taken all the steps to do this work by yourself. Do not approach me about how to do the work of anti-racism or how you can like support me as an individual or like us or like you know, and this is like, and I'm sure this like is so much more acute of an issue when it comes to issues of Blackness, anti-Blackness, anti-Black racism. Like, you know, before you approach your Black coworker being like, Hi, how can I help you? You need to have done all this stuff first.

Kristen  32:00  
I also don't, I don't cosign approaching your Black coworker. I'm so sorry. 

Prakash  32:05  
No, no. Okay, my addendum because if you have done all these things, and you do them comfortably, and without recognition, without seeking recognition, they should have been able to come to you. And if they have not come to you. Don't. Leave them alone. 

Kristen  32:19  
Yeah. 

Prakash  32:19  
What you can do is intervene in situations. 

Kristen  32:23  
Yes.

Prakash  32:24  
Of racism. 

Kristen  32:25  
Yeah. 

Prakash  32:25  
Fuckery, bullshit, and hate crimes.

Kristen  32:27  
Exactly. See that? We will we, if I can say we and speak for all Black people, I can't. So I'm gonna speak for myself. Those are situations where I appreciate the white person who has intervened and then I know that white person's okay, and then potentially when other racist things happen, or if I need to vent about a racist thing that has happened at work, I know that I can come to you. You don't need to self declare to me, your actions will speak louder than your words. But if you do not do the work that goes into what however many levels Prakash has laid out your actions cannot speak because they will be the wrong ones.

Prakash  33:00  
Exactly. I think especially in terms of like solidarity organizing amongst Black folk and Indigenous folk there is sort of like this, like desire that you need to be in conversation or need to do things for these people. And that is not the case, you can you can do a lot of this work...

Kristen  33:17  
That is still steeped in the very racism that we're trying to get you to unlearn.

Prakash  33:22  
Yeah, again, there were at least five tiers, five steps that I mentioned, where you're doing the work of support, without bothering anybody without without putting in your like without interfering with the life and operations of people of colour. And see how these steps are all very small, and all steps that you can continue to do year after year after year after year. 

Kristen  33:45  
Sustainable action. 

Prakash  33:47  
Because they're not tied to writing a statement for your workplace, or for just making a committee assigning the task of anti-racism to five people and leaving it at that. Like see how these steps make you personally involved. And there's no, there's no end date. There's no like expiration. There is no like time sensitive nature of this. You can donate at any time. You can read it any time. You can talk to your family at any time. You can intervene in racist situations at any time. 

Kristen  34:17  
And not just racist situations, all of the situations. 

Prakash  34:19  
All of them it can be again, like racism, multi levels, right? This is what we talked about the step zero. If you're in a Zoom meeting, and then you see that you're like Black coworker has had their hand up and no one has called on them yet. Or it's like you see someone fully wholesale ripping off someone else's idea. You can be like, I think Kristen said that earlier or it can be like well, going off of like Kristen's point. I think that this is a great idea. These are all like really old feminist tactics of like, you know, of finding ways to do this citational like referencing within meetings or in conversations like attribute knowledge to where you are from. You know, you can drop int he conversation, oh, by the way as we can bell hooks, rest in power, and like, she has this great articulation of like education as like a transformative tool or I was reading Robyn Maynard's book again and wow the police state fucked up. Did y'all know this? Like, you know, you can, again many steps before you bother anybody.

Kristen  35:16  
And like many steps that you will continue to revisit and continue to use. Like they're skills that you should never put down. Because like Prakash said earlier, you don't know what you don't know. You don't know all of the things that you need to learn. You don't know all of the things that you've unintentionally learned growing up or in adulthood even. And so you need to retrace these steps every time you learn something new, sit in the discomfort, learn more about it, talk to other people, talk to your peers about it, in a way that gets all of you to the same level of understanding. Because if we all just do better and be better than there will be less work. Like it doesn't need to be. I think that's the thing. I'm like, you don't need to do this work in the open in a way that means that I can now tick boxes and keep track of how well or not well, you're actually being anti-racist, you can just be anti-racist.

Prakash  36:21  
Yeah, if 35 million people, the population of Canada did these microactions. It would be a wholly different country.

Kristen  36:32  
Yeah, it really would. I think that's a great place to end.

Prakash  36:37  
Thanks for listening to this part two of allyship. One year later. The retrospective. Year and a half later. I don't know what time is. 

Kristen  36:46  
Time is relative. 

Prakash  36:47  
But we'll see you in two weeks for our next episode where we will have a script maybe? Who knows? 

Kristen  36:54  
We'll see how we feel. 

Prakash  36:54  
Tune in and find out. 

Kristen  36:55  
Yeah. 

Prakash  36:55  
Jean Francois'. Let me know if you're listening.

Kristen  36:59  
Let Prakash know if he owes some organizations money.

Prakash  37:04  
Until then, stay in the know.

Both  37:06  
Bye.

Kristen  37:13  
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