...About The Peel Police's Nonsense?

We're taking a trip back to our hometown to talk about the nonsense that is the new Peel Police's anti-racism committee and why efforts like these, while look nice, do nothing.

References:
InSauga article

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Kristen  0:16  
Hey kids and welcome to Do the Kids Know? That is this show where we talk to you about race, media, pop culture, and politics in triple K Canada. I am one of your hosts, Kristen. On my Zoom screen is your other host, Prakash. 

Prakash  0:32  
Hello. 

Kristen  0:33  
And today, we are going to talk to you about the Peel Police because we came across this hilarious? Confusing? Lots of descriptive words InSauga article that caused me to backtrack through some InSauga and InBrampton links. We're gonna talk about it today. Yeah, yeah. 

Prakash  0:58  
Yeah. Yup.

Kristen  1:00  
But before we do that, Prakash, how did co-star read you this week?

Prakash  1:06  
In several ways. Oh, yeah. The one that [chuckles] the one that really got me was the other day it told me, there is a difference between having shit to do and having shit to prove. And...

Kristen  1:19  
Rude. 

Prakash  1:20  
I was like, wow, how dare you?

Kristen  1:21  
Yeah, that's, that's quite rude. 

Prakash  1:25  
Because, as we know, you know. As much as we say, team, do less.

Kristen  1:30  
You are not doing less.

Prakash  1:32  
No. Team actively doing way too much. And are all the things necessary? No. But, um, am I committed for no reason? Yes. 

Kristen  1:43  
Yes, you are. 

Prakash  1:44  
Yes. Actually, the other day, I was talking to my friend about my plan to slowly divest from doing from doing things with my mom. I was talking to my mom the other day, I was like, telling her that I was going to basically I'm giving like two presentations. This next couple days, like one at a gallery here in Montreal, and then at a conference in Kingston. So it was explaining to her like, like, what this was. She was like, wait, this is not part of your work. And I was like, no. She was like, your other work? And I was like, also, no. She was like, your third work? And I was like, No. This is like, not work related. And she was like, thisi is part of your volunteering thing? And I was like, which one? And then she liked described one. I was like, No, not that one. She was like, the other one. I was like, No. [chuckles] Pain.

Kristen  2:35  
Pain you've caused yourself.

Prakash  2:38  
I know pain that is self inflicted. 

Kristen  2:41  
Yeah.

Prakash  2:41  
Yeah. But I told her, bBut you know, I have this plan of like, slowly leaving things once I finish what I have planned on doing. And my like, plan for divesting like takes me into 2024.

Kristen  2:53  
You have a plan that takes you into 2024? 

Prakash  2:59  
Yeah. 

Kristen  2:59  
Wow.

Prakash  3:00  
I know, for me surprising, because I never plan anything. 

Kristen  3:03  
Mmm mmm.

Prakash  3:03  
But yeah, but the fact that it took me two years to stop doing things I think is also a problem, but...

Kristen  3:10  
I just... Like this is lovely. I love that you have a plan. I really, really do love that you have a plan. I'm saying that in my like, leading voice in my sarcastic and like I don't mean it sarcastically. I mean it very genuinely. I love that you have a plan. I love that you are going to divest and like once you hit your goals, you're going to stop doing so many things. However, I think that's only half of the problem. I think the other half of the problem is that you say yes when you should say no. 

Prakash  3:41  
Yeah. 

Kristen  3:43  
So while you're divesting, I can still see you saying yes when you should say no.

Prakash  3:48  
Yeah, I'm gonna have to do my anti-Shonda Rhimes year of yes and have a year of no where I just say no to everything. Despite how much I may or may not want to do it.

Kristen  3:57  
I mean, I'm also not saying that. I just think that you should be a lot more discerning about the situations and the circumstances around which you say yes. Not everything just like there. It's not binary. It's not always yes. It's not always no. There's a middle ground that you have yet to achieve.

Prakash  4:19  
Yeah, this is this was kind of like Shonda Rhimes is like, thesis of her book in which she like said of everything before that she said yes to everything for a year, and then she found the middle way after that.

Kristen  4:29  
I think you need to do the exact opposite.

Prakash  4:33  
Yeah. Anyhow. Co-star. Revealing my inner truths.

Kristen  4:40  
We've been trying. You keep resisting.

Prakash  4:44  
I know. I know. It's like when your parents'll say something you're like no but then when your friend tells you you're like, fine. 

Kristen  4:49  
Except that we've been telling you for many years.

Prakash  4:52  
I know. It literally- 

Kristen  4:53  
You've been telling yourself and ignoring yourself. Okay?

Prakash  4:59  
My family's been telling it to me, my friends, myself, strangers in the street. And yet... 

Kristen  5:05  
Here we still are. 

Prakash  5:06  
Here we are. Yeah, deep personality flaw. Anyway, what about you?

Kristen  5:14  
Oh my god. We're not brushing this under the rug. I'm gonna keep bringing it back till you do something 'bout it.

Prakash  5:21  
It comes up every episode. So every two weeks I get a reminder. It's good.

Kristen  5:26  
It comes up every episode. It comes up every day, Prakash. Okay? Every day you do something and you tell us something. And we're like, Prakash, what is happening? Why is this happening in this way? And you're like, I know, it shouldn't have happened in this way. And then we all are like, so how are you going to stop it happening in this way? And then you don't respond. And then the next day, you're like, this thing is happening.

Prakash  5:49  
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Let's move on. 

Kristen  5:55  
I know what you guys are gonna tell me but... I know how I got myself here but...

Prakash  6:02  
But. Listen, yeah, I know exactly what I do. Why I do it when I do it. The who, what, where, and why. It's all extremely clear. The how, the how to stop. This is part that I'm like... Yeah. 

Kristen  6:16  
We're getting there. 

Prakash  6:16  
It could be worse. You know, I could be saying yes to crack or something. You know, instead, it's just like-

Kristen  6:20  
Whoa! [Prakash laughs] Whoa!

Prakash  6:27  
You know, I could have, I could have some other you know, some more externally problem causing issues. 

Kristen  6:34  
Whoa! 

Prakash  6:35  
I can't even see you anymore. You've disappeared into your closet.

Kristen  6:38  
I did cause I kind of fell over and then the things fell on top of me. Um, just because like we went from like, you over committing to you being addicted to crack. Like those were...

Prakash  6:51  
It's another kind of over commitment.

Kristen  6:53  
Sure. Yeah. Um.

Prakash  6:58  
Overcommitment to a good time. [both laugh] 

Kristen  7:04  
Wow.

Prakash  7:05  
I'm assuming. I mean, I've never... I'm going to retract what I was about to just say, because I can't guarantee that it was true.

Kristen  7:14  
Wow. How did we get here?

Prakash  7:17  
Anyway, tell me your co-star because we have to move on. What was your co-star?

Kristen  7:22  
Wow. Okay. Like, my brain needs to get up on what we're trying to do. It's still stuck. It's still stuck. Okay. Okay, um, my co-star. I can read the one from yesterday because that was... It was rude. Yesterday co-star told me, don't mistake your judgments for facts. 

Prakash  7:46  
Yeah, Virgo. 

Kristen  7:47  
As a Virgo, as a Virgo with a Capricorn Moon, rude. 

Prakash  7:52  
Yeah. Alternative Facts. 

Kristen  7:54  
As a Virgo with a Capricorn Moon and the Sagittarius like rising that tells me that like I can be chaotic when I am correct. My judgments are facts. Okay? Rude.

Prakash  8:08  
Listen that the same way that you can you are I am the architect of my own misfortune. You are the architect of your own reality.

Kristen  8:15  
Thank you. Yes. 

Prakash  8:16  
Yeah. 

Kristen  8:17  
Wow, that was rude. Because also I fell right into that because I said Yes, I am and then went no, he means this derogatorily. This was not a compliment.

Prakash  8:26  
It was stating reality.

Kristen  8:31  
Okay. So the thing that piqued our interest, dear listeners, InSauga posted an article on the 10th of August titled, New Police anti racism committee tackle systemic racism barriers in Mississauga, and Brampton. For those who don't know, need a refresher, we'll just state it. Prakash and I are from the Region of Peel, which is a Regional Municipality to the west of Toronto. It governs Mississauga to the south, Brampton, in the middle, Caledon to the north, but Caledon's policing is done by the Ontario Provincial Police. And so the Peel Police is only Brampton and Mississauga. And now they have an anti racism committee. I immediately was like, hmm.

Prakash  9:22  
I'm sorry, I'm just gonna interrupt you really quick to mention InSauga is a name of a digital publication that like has Mississauga related news. In case you're not familiar, and also for context, the combined population of a Brampton Mississauga is like over a million people.

Kristen  9:36  
Yes. 

Prakash  9:37  
Like Brampton, I dunno, a couple years ago was like the ninth biggest city in Ontario. So Mississauga being even bigger. So... 

Kristen  9:44  
Yeah. 

Prakash  9:44  
Yeah, so this is like, it's only, it's only two cities, but these are like two gigantic cities. And then... 

Kristen  9:51  
They're huge. 

Prakash  9:51  
With like, a really heavy immigrant population. 

Kristen  9:54  
Yeah. 

Prakash  9:55  
In both. 

Kristen  9:56  
Yeah. 

Prakash  9:57  
Take it away.

Kristen  9:59  
And InSauga also has a sister publication InBrampton, obviously. And so the title alone was clickbait, obviously, because why is there an anti racism committee, what is, tell me more about this anti racism committee that is related to the police in these very large cities. 

Kristen  10:20  
And so on Wednesday, and I'm reading directly from the article here, it says that, on Wednesday, the police announced that there's going to be an independent anti racism Advisory Committee. That is a collaboration between the police, the Peel Police Services Board and the Ontario Human Rights Commission. And so it's going to be made up of 21 Mississauga and Brampton residents from a wide range of backgrounds. And it's a collaboration between those three people that will help the like for three groups of the police, the Police Services Board, the Human Rights Commission, and it will help address systemic racism in the surface by giving advice and feedback on anti racism practices. Chief Nishan Duraiappah called the new committee, a critical component of the regional police's commitment to quote "human rights centred work in dismantling systemic racism". 

Kristen  11:18  
And so I immediately was like, I have so many thoughts, questions, concerns, because number one, this committee is coming from three groups together. So it's not just the police, it's the police, their board, and the Ontario Human Rights Commission that are making this committee even exist. So that's the first thing, the police couldn't get their shit together enough on their own. The second thing, this committee is going to be an anti racism committee that tackles systemic racism barriers in Mississauga and Brampton. But the systemic racism barriers don't originate with the police. The police enforces the barriers. So, okay, cool. The committee doesn't include the people who are writing the policies that are actually enacting the systemic barriers. So I don't really know how they're going to tackle even they're going to start to tackle their mandate. So that's thing number two. Thing number three, it's a 21 person committee. What are you actually doing with 21 people of varying backgrounds from Mississauga and Brampton? And if it's a committee, they're probably going to meet quarterly. [scoffs] What are you doing with 21 people like what are you tangibly doing with 21 people that will tangibly tackle systemic anything?

Prakash  12:48  
The answer is nothing. I have so many, so many thoughts that are mostly just like, I'm tired. But I want to point out also that again, Peel Police, Peel Region, huge, huge mega population. From like, what I've observed too from like, having lived there, my entire like childhood, basically, is the police force too was like, seemingly also already, like racially diverse at least.

Kristen  13:18  
But that doesn't stop them from sorry, that doesn't stop them from being racist or discriminatory. There was a survey, in December, at least the results were published in December. And it was over 1000 people who responded, people in Mississauga, Brampton, and Caledon. And like, 82% of the respondents who were Black said that they've had negative interactions with the police. 100 of the people who like were Middle Eastern, and 100% of the Indigenous people who responded said that, like all of their negative interactions with the police, were based on like, racist discrimination. So like, despite to being more diverse, because they have to be diverse because of the immigrant population in Brampton they're still racist, like, I don't...

Prakash  14:04  
Yeah, it's like, if the you can have all of the moral values you have, you know, whatever, like your community values or whatever, anti racist sentiment, like you can have this as an individual. But again, when you join and are indoctrinated into an institution, thats sole purpose is to maintain white supremacy, then it doesn't matter like how good faith you are. Like there's no... I have yet to see an argument that really explains or really kind of like demonstrates to me that it is possible to institute institutional change or systemic change or to like you as like the one good apple to you know, whatever. 

Prakash  14:57  
All this to say that this new chief of police Nishan Duraiappah and was sworn in 2019. So just three years ago, and Peel Regional Police was formally formed in 1974. So like, nearly 50 years ago, and Duraiappah is the first person of colour to have this post. And so that just, and I think that, you know, policing aside, there is a lot of pressure when you are like a token, or the first or whatever to like, take on the responsibility of like, quote, unquote, solving the issues related to like, whatever is associated with your identity. So if you're the only or the first person of colour to have this role, you're like, hey, now like, I have to be the one who like solves racism. Or if you're like, the only like, disabled person, or the first person who's like, hey, I want to solve ableism, or like homophobia or like, whatever, like, it's always, not always, but often feels like, you know, you need to be the mouthpiece for an entire community. Because you're in a position of like, power or privilege, even if, you know, it's not gonna do anything or, you know, that's not effective or whatever. 

Prakash  16:15  
So just reading about his background. So Duraiappah is like, what immigrated to Canada in 1985, from Sri Lanka. And if you're not familiar, people listening that like, I mean, Sri Lanka now, look it up, it's like, basically going through something very similar as to what happened within like, the 80s and 90s. There's a huge influx of Tamil immigrants that came to Canada and really around the world because of essentially, like, Civil War, not even Civil War, it was fully just genocide. And so, to me, I can understand how like, because I, yeah, at this point, I've I like, have known people who have, like, you know, people of colour who have been part of the police, been part of the military, and given their backgrounds I can, I can, I can understand, like, how they got there. And I'm not like, even though I'm really not very, like ACAB you know, all cops are bad. I, I can totally, I think like sympathise with like how people get to these positions and whatnot. And like, the, I don't know, whatever, like personal personal responsibility you feel, or whatever, like, cycles, you feel that you need to close through, like getting back power, you might have lost in that situation, like being a victim of genocide. Or, like, the only way to access education in this country, which is very expensive. If you don't have wealth, or access to wealth through like a loan, is to go to the military, like I understand people have reasons for doing whatever. All this to say that, um, you know, not knowing who this person is, aside from what I've just read on this like star article, like, I'm sure that this is being done in good faith, like, hey, let us involve the community in discussion to, you know, see how we can do better. But it's like, even before this person started, this has been happening for like, I'm sure since the start of policing, because there have all heard from problems in policing. There have always been community consult, there are already existing Town Hall procedures for people to like, call out the police for like problems, or any kind of municipal or regional or provincial services. These systems already exist, the board is there to already address these issues. Committees are already formed within boards. To tackle these issues right there. There are already external services that provide audits to the police. This has already happened like several times during both like BLM like major resurgences in 2014. And then again, in 2020. Like...

Kristen  18:55  
This is where I'm gonna disagree with you that this is happening in good faith. Because if you look back at the history for how they landed at this anti racism committee, it's because in 2021, or 2020, the Toronto Police created their own, like anti racism advisory panel. And in the wake of that panel, other police boards were like, maybe we should also have a panel? And the Peel Police Services Board, which is the civilian board that like governs the police service said we don't need a panel because we already do outreach in the community. And then the community was like, yes, we do need a panel because the outreach clearly isn't enough. And in response to that, they said, well, then let's make a DEI panel. And the community was like, a DEI panel is not the same thing as an anti racism panel. They're different. How do you not know that they're different? And then in response to that, they've now partnered with the police and with the Ontario Human Rights Commission to make this committee. 

Prakash  19:59  
Hmm.

Kristen  20:02  
Yeah. So like, yes, I agree that there are other things that the police does. Yes, I agree that there are people who are a part of the Police Service who like their circumstances make it so that they have to be there. But, I don't necessarily agree that everybody is there and doing this is there out of good faith. And I don't necessarily agree that what they're going to do with this is anything at all, because I think they landed here because they felt like, this was the, like, the cookie crumbs that they could give us to shut us up.

Prakash  20:34  
Yeah, I mean, any of these kinds of like, reactionary, also very public, kind of like the declarations of, we're gonna do better by listening, you know?

Kristen  20:44  
And that's really what it was. Like, they said that like, yeah, Toronto felt like they needed that panel, but we don't need it. And then Brampton and Mississauga were like, yeah, we do. We do need it. And they were like, oh, crap, okay, maybe we do need to do something. Because also, if you look at the Peel Police Services Board, it's city councillors, and then it's like three brown people. [laughing]

Kristen  21:10  
And then I like I looked at their bios, and like, of the three brown people, only one of them in their actual bio actually identifies, like any marginalisation at all. The other two, like all of them, it's like, here's the like, professional things that you should know about me and the personal things that you should know about me, but none of those things are the ways that they are marginalised. Except for one of them, who says that he's Muslim. And that's the civilian board that governs the Peel Police.

Prakash  21:41  
I mean, yeah, given that, you know, these board are the ones that like direct and govern Regional Police Services. 

Kristen  21:47  
Yeah. 

Prakash  21:48  
It's not surprising that they are terrible and homogenus in identity.

Kristen  21:54  
Hold on. There's a quote in my notes, and I have to read it, because like, I actually laughed. That's why I wrote it down. "There does not appear to be a gap that would be filled by establishing a standalone Peel Police Services Board, anti black or anti racism advisory panel, citing that other Ontario police boards don't have these panels, so they don't need one either". 

Prakash  21:56  
Because policing has never had any problems. 

Kristen  22:14  
Policing has never had any problems. And most of the Ontario police boards don't have anti black anti racism panels. So like, why do we need one? Like completely ignoring the fact that Brampton and Mississauga are so full of immigrant populations, so full of racialized populations, and the rest of Ontario is not. Like, I'm just what?

Prakash  22:33  
I'm sure I've talked about this before on the podcast, but like, yeah, so we grew up in, like, 30, 40 minutes west of Toronto. And then where I went to do my undergrad was like, 45 minutes east of Toronto. 

Kristen  22:45  
It's so white. 

Prakash  22:46  
And I had culture shock. I was honestly, like, shook to my core. Still traumatised, it was awful.

Kristen  22:53  
Even here, like, you can tell. I'm in Ottawa now, y'all. And you can tell that when my sister and I walk in certain places, the white people were like, wait, there's black people here. You can tell that they're like, wait, hmm. Not in a, like, an aggressive way or like, you know, just like, oh, interesting. You know? They're, they're surprised that we exist in their, like neighbourhood. Yeah. Yeah. And I live now in a suburb of the nation's capitol. So...

Prakash  23:30  
And when it's the police who are like, oh, interesting, we call that racial profiling. 

Kristen  23:35  
Right? Like... But, you know, which police board doesn't need an anti black anti racism panel? Brampton and Mississauga. Peel Police. They don't need it. They don't need it. 

Prakash  23:47  
Yeah. Cause they're like, we have like Black and brown police officers. So we're good. 

Kristen  23:51  
We are so good. 

Prakash  23:52  
They will watch their own. And it's like, no, this is not how that works. 

Kristen  23:57  
That's not at all how that works. 

Prakash  23:59  
Also it's like, it's, it's a bit of a, for me, a bit of a depressing sign. If you're like, oh, we won't even do the like, lip service of having a committee or having a panel because like... 

Kristen  24:10  
Yeah. 

Prakash  24:11  
You know, this does nothing, especially if these are like, civilians who are not in the board who like don't have any actual institutional power to like, enforce change. 

Kristen  24:20  
Yeah. 

Prakash  24:21  
This is you know, this is Do the Kids Know is now officially a Sandy and Nora recap podcast. Last week, they were talking about how constantly the government's response is, like, okay, we're gonna take this time to like, listen and learn [Kristen scoffs] with respect to like, mainly Indigenous issues, right? Like... 

Kristen  24:39  
But you don't need to learn. We been telling you. 

Prakash  24:41  
People have been saying it. And like, so for instance, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, they were like specifically not given any kind of powers to institute change. They could only make the recommendations, but other TRCs in other countries like South Africa, they were given...

Kristen  24:56  
The power to do stuff.

Prakash  24:56  
...like, legal power. 

Kristen  24:58  
Yeah. 

Prakash  24:59  
And so oh, Canada was intentional, like, no.

Kristen  25:03  
You can tell us and then we will decide what to do with it.

Prakash  25:06  
We will temporarily appease people by like making it look like we're doing work. It's like, this also ties into what we're talking about last episode about how like all of these institutions are like really committed to just maintaining the status quo. To do this busy work to like look like they're working toward a solution, or working toward a goal when really like the solution or their their real goal is just to like continue to keep themselves afloat. And to continue to like manufacture a need for policing to exist, when we actually have a lot of data that shows that like, crime is on the decline. And yet police budgets, aside from some small successes in like, the defund the police movement continue to increase with inflation, for things like body cams, which research has shown is not an effective measure of preventing or dissuading police violence. 

Kristen  26:06  
Well, because the thing that we've always said, and like we collectively social justice advocates, police officers respond after. They are reactive, not proactive. We should be funding services that are proactive, not reactive. And that that like that's the crux of it. Proactive versus reactive. We need proactive things. We don't need reactive things. The police, the government are reactive. And that is not what we need right now. That is not what is sustainable. And just like to speak to your point about like justifying their existence while maintaining the status quo. So in October, when the police, like the Peel Police Services Board was finally like, okay, fine. So we won't do the anti black racism panel, but we will do the diversity and inclusion committee. I just want to read to you two of the mandates, because they don't mean anything. Okay, they don't, they don't mean anything. So it said that, okay, we're gonna do this committee, it's going to meet at least once every four months. It has to have at least two, like, they didn't specify the maximum number, or at least, maybe I just didn't read the maximum number in the article. But the committee had to have at least two members of the Police Services Board on it. And at least one of those members had to be an elected city official. So one of the city councillors and it would be mandated to, I'm not going to read all the mandates. I'm just gonna read these two because they are really, really funny. And I'm going to read them word for word. Okay, are you ready? 

Kristen  27:48  
I'm ready. Okay. So the committee will be mandated to, [Kristen clears her throat] "to recognise that everyone in Peel Region benefits from a police service free from systemic barriers faced by the most disadvantaged communities". Why is that a mandate of the committee?

Prakash  28:06  
There was no directive there.

Kristen  28:08  
Literally, literally no directive. What are they gonna do? Like everybody's gonna sign like, they're gonna put that we recognise that everyone in Peel Region benefits from a police service free from systemic barriers, and everybody signs it and like, they're done. Like, what is that mandate? What does that mean? So that's the first one that I was like, this means nothing. Okay. And then the second one, the Committee will be mandated to "acknowledge that racism is experienced differently by various racialized and other groups, including gender identity, creed, class, sexual orientation, etc." Again, that means nothing. What are they doing? What were they going to do? What were they going to do?

Prakash  28:51  
I... This... This is... I'm tired. 

Kristen  28:55  
This is also why earlier, I was like, I don't know if everybody be acting in good faith because like, this was literally they said, this is the mandate of this committee. We said, we don't need a panel, you said, we need a panel. We said, okay, we give you a DEI committee. This is the mandate. These were the mandates. They said. Released to the public. We're making a committee. This is what they're gonna do.

Prakash  29:16  
Listen, as you know, I recently just painted my apartment, tropical smoothie coloured, and I'm trying to bring in those vibes into my life and be less angry. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and read this very generously, and say, that...

Kristen  29:28  
Okay. Give us a generous reading because I can't find it.

Prakash  29:30  
I going to say that they are wanting to showcase to the public, that they understand that there is a multiplicity or there's a lot of nuance within discussions of discrimination, racism, these kinds of things, its not just you know, like that anti blackness is a uniformly applied discrimination against all peoples, etc. That like there are particular violences that are placed on people with intersecting marginal identities. For more reading on this if you're interested in people listening some great chapters on on Policing Black Lives by Robin Maynard, specifically with respect to immigrant Black women and Black trans women who experience even more disproportionate police violence in terms of like rates of arrest, but also in terms of like, actual violence in those arrests. I think that's as generous as I can be. 

Prakash  30:38  
But this is stupid, because really, this I mean, again, it's like, it's like barely paying lip service. Because this is not like, a company being like, okay, we're going to train every single police officer to undergo like, however many hours of gender sensitivity training with this organisation. This is what the materials are blah blah blah, so people can like verify that, like, they're following through with their mandate of like, quote unquote, recognising. And I think this is also one that we use, like see often when institutions, like policing is like, oh, you know, these problems? They're not they're not with their officers. These are systemic problems that are beyond our control. And I'm always like... 

Kristen  31:20  
Okay but like, why...

Prakash  31:21  
You are the system.

Kristen  31:22  
But then I'm also like, sure. But why did none of your mandates speak to your officers? Why do none of your mandates speak to training? Why do none of your mandates speak to talking to the people who enact the things and enforce the systemic barriers?

Prakash  31:45  
Yeah, like, you know, if I will just propose some, you know, let's say, I've already made Chief of Police for no reason, for whatever reason. And I have, like, you know, new president in office 100 days, where whatever I say goes, you know, these are some things off the top of my head, and we're gonna see, you know, like... 

Kristen  32:04  
Let's go. I'm ready. 

Prakash  32:05  
How does it compare to the mandates you just read? Any police officer that gets filed, filed a complaint regarding gender based violence, discrimination, or racially based violence discrimination, ableist violence or discrimination, immediately suspended without pay while the investigation ongoes. Disband the, if I had the powers to, disband the what's the board that oversees the Ontario policing?

Kristen  32:35  
The Peel Police Services Board?

Prakash  32:38  
No. What's the one for like the OPP? 

Kristen  32:40  
Oh, I have no idea.

Prakash  32:41  
They have their own board. Anyway. 

Kristen  32:43  
Whichever board that is. Every police has a services board, whatever governance body.

Prakash  32:51  
Disband that services board, because I don't trust these people who are on these committees.

Kristen  32:55  
See, I would just replace the services board because generally it's a civilian board but it's filled with like City Councillors or with people who were cops, used to be cops, have cop affiliations. I would replace them and change their mandates so that they could actually do something because generally also the police boards are not given the mandate to actually change anything. Even the Peel Police Services Board actually, it says like, quite explicitly that they are they have nothing to do with the day to day operations, that is the chief of police. So I would change their mandate immediately.

Prakash  33:31  
But yeah, like the board that was created to oversee either the, I can't remember, ugh, my brain now, this is probably for both the OPP, the Ontario Provincial Police and the RCMP, like, there's a board that's created to kind of like investigate issues, like internal issues. But that board is was basically founded of all former police officers. And so, you know, there, there are many readings about the boys club that is policing, which is why often when people like go on leave, they're paid and then they disappear. And then they like join another board somewhere that they don't another police force somewhere else. And then the violence continues itss because like, these are people who are all like, taking care of one another. And this is like, not unique to policing. This is like basically abuses in all systems. Schools. In the arts. Like any kind of like insular-ish field in which people like have power over others and typically when the makeup of the people who work there are homogenous, the military etc. 

Prakash  34:33  
And so obviously, like these are not effective, especially when it's like if you're trying to escalate let's say, I filed a complaint against an officer and it goes through like whatever channels into the this like review board or whoever, like has the final final decision making power. If they're like, no we found nothing wrong. There's often no other like, legal recourse for you to take this somewhere else. It's like when there are issues in policing like this doesn't just go to the regular courts. This goes into their own internal things, which makes it very difficult for you to actually like, pursue damages. For you to like, pursue, like, quote unquote, justice when within our very broken and fucked up and illegal legal system. Considering that like these crown lands, quote, unquote, are stolen, and we should be abiding by local Indigenous laws. But, you know, here we are. And just like, if you really wanted to, okay, because the first couple of words in that first of the two mandates that you read...

Kristen  35:35  
"Recognise that everyone in Peel Region benefits from a police service free from systemic-" 

Prakash  35:39  
Stop. That's wrong. [Kristen laughs] People do not benefit from a police service. If we like you talked about prevention at the start, or like, you know, that we're continuing to like, all these things are reactionary. It's like, okay, maybe you would say maybe like, instead of policing people for public urination, why don't you like build bathrooms? 

Kristen  35:58  
Yeah. 

Prakash  35:59  
You know? 

Kristen  35:59  
Oh my god. My sister and I were talking about like, oh, my god, wow, I had the thought and then interrupted you. And then it left my brain. Lights! Oh! Because like, we were driving, and then we were talking about how it's crazy that if your light is out in your car, and a cop pulls you over, that they fine you for your light being out instead of changing the bulb for you. 

Prakash  36:23  
Yeah. 

Kristen  36:23  
Like they should change because like, now you are a danger to the other people. That's why they pulled you over, right? Like your light is out. But if you are the driver, how do you know, your light is out, you are driving the car. Shouldn't they pull you over to say, hey, you're a hazard, here's the bulb, let me change it for you. And then off you go, you are no longer a hazard. They have protected the rest of the drivers on the road. 

Prakash  36:44  
Or let me follow you home so that you get there safely and then... 

Kristen  36:46  
Right? 

Prakash  36:46  
You know, whatever. 

Kristen  36:47  
Then you can deal with it. Why do they not only pull you over and then give you a ticket. So now you're giving the police service a ticket, and you're giving them mechanic the money to change your bulb, or you're giving the like, Home Hardware place the money to change the bulb, if you know how.

Prakash  37:02  
And the way that people be living these days in this economy. It's like, you know, changing the bulb might be very expensive. Cost prohibitive. But now the ticket on top of that is also an additional charge, like could you know, like...

Kristen  37:13  
If they were really protecting you...

Prakash  37:13  
...could really break your finances.

Kristen  37:15  
...they would just changed the bulb for you and send you on your way.

Prakash  37:17  
Yeah, and again, it's like a lot of these systems are linked, right? It's like when people can't access health care services, let's say mental health care services, and then they have no choice but to like, be in the streets because it can act as help. And then now, let's say this causes a public disturbance. Or maybe it's like an it's an incidence of violence. Again, this person as an individual gets charged, again, being fined money that they can't necessarily like pay. Also pay for what? Like, who does it benefit?

Kristen  37:45  
Thank you.

Prakash  37:45  
Aside from the police? It's not like, hey, like, oh, you know what, we caught up on this building shame on you. Here's a ticket, this ticket will go back to like, fund, you know, municipal cleaning services. That's not how this works. 

Kristen  37:56  
Nope. 

Prakash  37:57  
The police just like stack up your coins, for whatever reason, I don't know.

Kristen  38:01  
And you can always tell, like, we make jokes about it, that like it's near the end of the month, or it's near the whatever, because like the tickets increased, because they gotta make their quota. Like, that should never be a joke, because there shouldn't be a ticket quota. Like...

Prakash  38:15  
And again, it's like the quotas exist, because crime is going down. Like there is especially during COVID there. I mean, like, domestic abuse situations arose. Again, I don't know what police are going to do in that situation, aside from escalate violence. 

Kristen  38:27  
Again, reactionary, not proactive, like I just, I can't. 

Prakash  38:31  
Actually, I learned about this literally yesterday that like, so driving, only, like a quarter of driving happens at night. But that's when like, more than half of like, mortalities happen. And often it's because when it's nighttime, obviously, visibility is like decreased. Especially, when it rains, it just makes it very difficult to like see roadsides and lines on the road. But there are like newer technologies they're developing to like, make it such that... Cause usually when this will get very, like sciency for a second. You know, when you like shine a light into a mirror it like shines back at that same angle that it goes in. 

Kristen  39:05  
Sure. 

Prakash  39:06  
So if you like shine it 45 degree angles, one way it's gonna come up on the opposite 45 degree angle. And obviously, this is like not ideal if you're driving with your headlights or whatever, because you're gonna like reflect light in the opposite direction you want, see, like come back at you. And so, they have like companies have developed like these kinds of like microcrystals that like that can be printed on surfaces and whatever. So when you like shine a light, it refracts in all directions. So like, this is why still at nighttime, you can see usually, hopefully, at least in Montreal, where the roads are not painted. You can usually like see, like, you know, the yellow strip on the road or whatever. So you like know where the lanes are. 

Kristen  39:44  
Cool. 

Prakash  39:45  
However, these crystals really only work when it's dry. Because when it's wet water itself, or like refracts light, and so the water is like counteracting the refractive properties of these crystals and then it makes it very difficult to see all of a sudden. But there are new technologies that like combine these crystals that are like meant to, like, be visible in water and crystals are meant to be visible when it's dry, they can mix them in certain ratios that make it possible to like, still see clearly, regardless of what the weather conditions are. So my proposition instead of spending $500,000 Valerie Plante, mayor of Montreal for body cams, why don't we just paint the roads so there's like less accidents and therefore less of a need of police.

Kristen  40:30  
I think that's a lovely note to end on. Because I support this proposal. 100%.

Prakash  40:36  
Yeah, truly anyone who would like two critical brain cells could come up with better plans than whatever this mandate was.

Kristen  40:40  
Honestly we came up with many just like spitballing.

Prakash  40:44  
Yeah, and if you people listening or like if your city is like, oh we don't need this and you'd like, yes you do. It's like you need to really push this further and ask for more. I mean, ask for more in that, ask for less you know, continue to like defunding the police is still a campaign that exists. It's still a motto that makes sense that like you know, we you know, don't, don't let this sentiment like disappear. I think we need to still continue to to apply pressure on our governments to continue to defund the police because it is working in a lot of places like. Even whenever there are like freezes in police budgets, that is still a win because otherwise they are like defaulted to keep making more with inflation but even if we can like keep them steady that is a very very very small win, but it is a win. So like looking around like just in Canada. Seeing where the successes are and like let's use this to continue to build momentum to really make a better future in which we do not need police because we don't. Okay, well. Thanks for staying in the know. See you in two weeks with a new episode. 

Both  42:01  
Bye.

Kristen  42:01  
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