...What Makes "Good" TV? (Part 1)

Transcript available here.

Fun, pop culture, episode this week inspired by this tweet where we discuss our favourite TV shows that we would teach in a course.

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

Find us: @dothekidsknow (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok)
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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Kristen  0:15  
Hey kids, and welcome to this episode of Do the Kids Know? This is the show where we talk about race, media, pop culture, and politics in triple k Canada. I am one of your hosts, Kristen. On my screen is your other host Prakash. 

Prakash  0:35  
Hello. 

Kristen  0:35  
And today... Well... I am filled with pain so I don't remember what we were talking about. We're doing a countdown of some sort. Prakash will take it away when we get there. But before we get there, we're talking about how co-star read us this week. I'll go first cause mine was two words. And I don't have my phone with me but remembered it because it was only two words that made me go Wow. Okay, co-star. Thanks. So earlier this week co-star told me to "touch myself". Yeah.

Prakash  1:11  
Uh... Emotionally? Physically?

Kristen  1:13  
I don't know. It was only two words.

Prakash  1:16  
Cool. I mean, I think a lot of people have a lot of pent up issues that can be solved through masturbation, but... 

Kristen  1:23  
I don't know that mine are.

Prakash  1:25  
Maybe it's telling you to like go go for a massage. 

Kristen  1:27  
But that- 

Prakash  1:27  
Message yourself.

Kristen  1:28  
Somebody else massaging me. When I message myself it hurts.

Prakash  1:31  
Maybe it's a, maybe its a good hurt? I don't know maybe you need to, like, hurt through, I was gonna say hurt through the pain. That doesn't make sense. 

Kristen  1:40  
It doesn't but I know what you meant. 

Prakash  1:43  
Yeah. 

Kristen  1:43  
Yeah. 

Prakash  1:45  
Well, mine told me, very rudely, to "decide to be an interesting person".

Kristen  1:53  
Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Prakash  1:55  
And I'm just like I truly don't know what more you want from me co-star.

Kristen  2:02  
Co-star told you, you're boring. Be more interesting. Just decide.

Prakash  2:07  
I truly like could not do any more things than I'm currently doing. I can barely do the things I'm currently doing. And... 

Kristen  2:18  
What did I say in a Patreon post? We're now team doing the best we can. So... 

Prakash  2:23  
Yeah. Pain. So yea`h, apparently, apparently whatever I'm doing to co-star is not good enough. So um... 

Kristen  2:28  
No, co-star said, you're boring. Liven things up.

Prakash  2:31  
That was a deep cut into my psyche.

Kristen  2:33  
Wow. A deep cut into mine also cause if you are boring, what am I?

Prakash  2:40  
Well, I think a lot of people who are like, you know, very comfortable in their orientation of a life of non-excitement. I will say. 

Kristen  2:50  
Yeah, non-excitement is great.

Prakash  2:54  
However, that is not me.

Kristen  2:55  
No. 

Prakash  2:56  
And I'm deeply offended by this. And there are some ways in which I may be a little basic, you know? I do enjoy iced coffee all year round. I have one right here with me, let me just take a sip. Some ASMR.

Kristen  3:13  
Okay, but then that means that like exciting doesn't equal interesting.

Prakash  3:21  
Well, I think there is a kind of like a fine line between exciting and interesting. I think often like things can be kind of conflated. Like, if you or someone... Did you see that video of like, I can't remember her name now but it's like a Black one on Tik Tok. She just like reacts to things. Always like, Oh, wow, like continue this activity or discontinue this activity is usually how she ends her videos. There's one where this guy is like mountain biking, I guess. But he's like, it's all just like downhill on these like tiny little stretches of like not road, just like paths. Fully just cliff diving off of his bicycle. And I'm like to me that is like, it's an exciting activity in that it creates adrenaline. 

Kristen  4:03  
But that's terrifying. 

Prakash  4:04  
Which is literally exciting the body. But to me someone who does that is not interesting. Like you are a fool. You, you know, require some deep spiritual inner work to be like, why do you feel the need to risk your life in this way?

Kristen  4:19  
I mean, I feel like we could dive into... I was gonna say something very rude. You know? You know, let me not. 

Prakash  4:26  
Into white culture? 

Kristen  4:27  
Yeah. 

Prakash  4:28  
Yup. 

Kristen  4:29  
It just seems like whenever someone is really, really risking their life in a way that just like they don't have to, they seem to be white. I don't know. I don't know. It seems to be a part of white culture that like, regular life isn't terrifying enough or stimulating enough because you know, they're not just like in survival mode all the time. And so in order to spice things up, they get into situations where they could die. And then they don't and then they're like, oh my god, this is amazing. I didn't die. Let me do it again and let me do it more terrifying than before. Whereas like the rest of us, are just like, I'm just trying to live. And they're like, living is boring. I would like to die. I don't know. I don't know. it's weird.

Prakash  5:13  
I'm sure this is like a universal thing where people of all, you know, cultures engages in these kinds of like, risky behaviours. But I think there's something about like, the televising of it or like, the, like, yeah, whenever I see it happen. Like online, it's always...

Kristen  5:27  
It's always white people showing me that they almost died, but didn't. And I'm like, I didn't need to see this. I really didn't.

Prakash  5:33  
And that's just like my PSA to everyone listening that hundreds of people every year, if not more, die from selfies, because they get like too close to the cliff's edge, and then take a photo or whatever, or they try to go somewhere where, you know, the photo ops gonna be real nice. And then they slip and fall and die or something happens.

Kristen  5:52  
Speaking of. My sister and I were watching a show. And it was about engineering things, maybe or bridges. Anyway, someone was talking about how there was a dude who like just died off of the bridge, because he was like, leaning back trying to get a TikTok and then fell. And went splat.

Prakash  6:11  
I think for every, you know, for all these extreme sport videos that you see that like, oh, like, that was cool that you rode your bike across, like a tightrope across two skyscrapers. Like good for you.

Kristen  6:23  
Oh my god. 

Prakash  6:24  
I'm sure that there are a lot of failed attempts that we do not see because they ended, they ended in horrific circumstances. 

Kristen  6:30  
Yeah. 

Prakash  6:31  
Anyway, but this is a good segue, talking about this TV show, because today, I don't know what that title is. But we are going to revisit a topic from episode, no, from season one, where we talked about critiquing guilty pleasures. This idea of guilty pleasures, in which, I don't know, I don't remember exactly what we talked about. But I remember like one, one media that we had like, critiqued, but then we both like watched and enjoyed was Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

Kristen  7:04  
Cause we were talking about guilty pleasure doesn't really exist. Like things that you consume that make you happy, and it's not hurting anybody else, consume them. It's for you. That's what it is. Like, there's no guilty pleasure, because guilt comes from other people's expectations of you. And if it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure. And that's it.

Prakash  7:25  
Right. But I think then, like our conversation, because, yeah, things like you know, people often feel like yeah, quote unquote guilty for watching like trash quote unquote TV. 

Kristen  7:35  
Like reality TV and that stuff. 

Prakash  7:36  
Reality TV. 

Kristen  7:37  
Yeah. 

Prakash  7:37  
Yeah. Things are not like educational or like stimulating with like a well written plot or mystery or something like that. 

Kristen  7:43  
Yeah. 

Prakash  7:44  
But then I think that there was, or at least, I experienced my own kind of guilt in like enjoying watching and enjoying a show like Brooklyn Nine-Nine. 

Kristen  7:51  
Copaganda. 

Prakash  7:51  
Which is, yeah, police propaganda, copaganda. I think as we, as we discussed. And then recently on Twitter. We're recording this on July 4th, so it was probably like around around the first of July. There was like this tweet that went viral for basically naming shows that were kind of doing this copaganda. A lot of dramas were listed. But then a lot of people also mentioned Brooklyn Nine-Nine because it is such a kind of like quirky sitcom, like office comedy. But then, even when they have episodes that touch on issues of racism or police reform or whatever, that it continues to sort of like humanise like individual... I mean, I think it's good to humanise people but like at no point really does the show kind of like fully engage with like problems of like structural violence, racism within the police. But they're like, oh look, but if this cast of characters themselves are diverse and informed and progressive, like... Not that the show I think intentionally has any kind of like pro-police agenda. Also at the time that has been developed like probably like in the early 2010s like people were not thinking this critically. People I mean, like white people. People who were like in Hollywood. But then part of why the show like came to its conclusion was because Andre Brauer who plays Captain hold was like, I'm not doing this anymore. It's so irresponsible. And yeah. 

Prakash  9:24  
Then the very last season they kind of like do start to address these things kind of like more, yeah, more critically. Spoiler alert if you haven't seen the last season it's been over a year or so get into it, or don't. You can leave it behind. But one of the one of the members of the cast like leaves the police force. Well I think the character of Gina leaves like a couple of seasons before but then one of the cops also leaves. And this raises some interesting questions. But all this to say, we are revisiting this question of TV and about like what makes good TV and how for us as people of colour how like racial representations shaped the way that we think about what makes good TV. So this episode is inspired by a tweet as this is, this is where we're going now with the direction of the show.

Kristen  9:24  
It really is. 

Prakash  9:53  
@DanielleNikki on Twitter, asked on July 3, "you're teaching a TV course, what's the five quote unquote perfect shows you assign your students to study?" Perfect is not defined. So we can think about how whichever ways we want to think about perfect TV. Could be through the cinematography. It could be the plot, the casting, and the characters. And I've seen the thread so I've already seen people some you know, what, were some of the comments. 

Kristen  10:39  
Ah, you cheated.

Prakash  10:40  
So I'll let you go first. I was quote unquote researching the topic. But so I'll let you go first. And together we will come up with a list of five and...

Kristen  10:49  
Okay.

Prakash  10:50  
...see how it goes. 

Kristen  10:51  
I'm gonna be really really big science fiction nerd at the moment and tell them to watch Star Trek. Not... It pains me to say this not Original Series. Oh my god. And it pains me because Original Series is like... I love it so much. Kirk is ridiculous. Spock is my favourite character ever. Uhura is... How do we not make them watch Uhura? But apparently we aren't. Yeah, so not Original Series. Definitely not Star Trek Enterprise. Oh my god, burn it to the ground. Oh my God. Not that one either. But um, an episode probably not Voyager either. Oh my god. Maybe I'm taking this back. There's just... Okay. Okay. Okay. 

Kristen  11:36  
So it would have to be that I would have to curate a list of Star Trek episodes to watch. Because like, I wouldn't want them to watch Original Series because Kirk is annoying. So it would have to be Original Series episodes where you get to see the beauty of like Sulu or Uhura or Spock. Not Enterprise. Burn it to the ground. It is the most American of the Star Treks. It's disgusting. And I mean that with my whole body, like it's disgusting. Okay? 

Kristen  12:11  
Voyager is okay, but there's specific characters on Voyager that I hate. So it would have to be not episodes related to them or not episodes where they are allowed to shine. And the same with Next Generation, it would have to not be an episode with Q because Q is the worst character that has ever been written. And I stand by that statement. 

Prakash  12:30  
Wow. 

Kristen  12:31  
I hate Q with all of my body. But there are episodes of Voyager and Next Generation that I love. And Deep Space Nine is... Oh, maybe they should just watch Deep Space Nine? Hmm. I'm still standing by that. I would watch them... I would curate a list of Star Trek episodes for them to watch. Yeah. 

Prakash  12:54  
Okay. 

Kristen  12:55  
Yeah.

Prakash  12:56  
If you did that, I might give it a watch because I've never seen the show.

Kristen  12:59  
I mean, I don't know why I gasped so dramatically. I know you've never seen it.

Prakash  13:06  
I think I saw one of the movies with like one of my friends or something.

Kristen  13:09  
One of... the newer movies? 

Prakash  13:12  
The one with one of the Chrises.

Kristen  13:14  
Okay, yeah, so the newer movies. That's a re... of the original. Remake. There we go. I was like there's a... There's supposed to be a verb there, but I don't know what it is.

Prakash  13:25  
It's okay. Your brain is not braining today. 

Kristen  13:27  
It's really not.

Prakash  13:29  
That's fine. 

Kristen  13:30  
Yeah.

Prakash  13:31  
Why would this be part of your course? What makes it a quote unquote, perfect show? At least the episodes that you're that you're going to curate for this list?

Kristen  13:39  
Because Star Trek as a show in and of itself is so flawed. It promotes colonisation. Like, we're going to explore the universe and like teach the rest of the uncivilised universe how to be civilised. And so I think that in, yeah, it's so flawed that the things that they do with it are still pretty awesome. Like, the alien specieses [yes, this is how I pronounced it]. That's not the reg- Anyway. The way that they still are given a space to shine while buying into colonisation. It's kind of funny. Anytime that they attempt to first contact but fuck it up. Those are also really funny. 

Kristen  14:25  
But then there's also episodes where you can see like the Federation peeps don't fully commit to colonisation themselves. And it's kind of hilarious. Because the whole premise of the show is we're going to colonise space. Like they don't say that but they mean that. Like we're going to colonise space. And so they interact with alien species who have never interacted with anyone other than themselves before. And so they're like, quote unquote, behind and those episodes are particularly fun to, yeah, see the way that they interact with them. Any episode where they interact with like a formidable force, so like the Romulans or the Klingons those are also really funny because the Romulans and the Klingons also are colonisers. And so watching colonisers interact with each other in space. Hilarious. 

Kristen  15:23  
I think that there is really good character development. There are some really good, like character specific shows as well. So like, in the midst of, we're furthering colonisation, in space for some reason, they are still also showing what makes humans human and developing characters in a way that is like, really interesting and really nice to watch. And I think that having that happen, when like, you could have chosen literally, anything to do in space, and you chose to replicate what we've done on earth? Great. Yeah, I love it. Also, we could do a whole segway on just costuming and sex, because for some reason, every time they meet an alien species, they sex them because somehow the sex pieces fit. I don't, I don't know. Like, how do, how do we have the right holes for the alien- Anyway. There are many themes that we could pull out in our pursuit of watching Star Trek. I think it could literally be its own course.

Prakash  16:34  
I'm positive that there are existing university courses.

Kristen  16:38  
Mmm hmm. 

Prakash  16:39  
About Star Trek.

Kristen  16:40  
Like sex and Star Trek could be its own course. It really could.

Prakash  16:44  
Oh, I see. All right. 

Kristen  16:46  
Yeah. 

Prakash  16:47  
Let's get into it. BA in Star Trek Media Criticism. 

Kristen  16:51  
Yeah. 

Prakash  16:52  
Interesting that one of your top five is a show about colonisation. But... 

Kristen  16:55  
Yeah. I know. Right? 

Prakash  16:58  
Yeah. But I think it's also interesting, like how you mentioned like when they are, well I've never seen this so I'm not sure how like self aware they are about like, the kind of like problematic rhetorics of colonisation. But that they subverting that within certain episodes, at least, to kind of call attention to whether, again, whether intentional or not, some of these like frictions, like...

Kristen  17:19  
I'm gonna go with not intentional, because like, whenever they subvert the main plot, it's generally like a character development piece that has them subvert the main plot.

Prakash  17:31  
But I do think that that's the kind of like the idea of like this, the subversion for me to kind of critical in terms of shows I find interesting. Like, I often can't get behind a lot of the kind of like detective crime dramas, because they all often, like follow the same kind of plot points. So once you've seen one, you've like kind of... 

Both  17:54  
Seen them all. 

Prakash  17:55  
In my opinion. Okay, I'm not sure this is like doing the work of like direct subversion. But one of the things I wanted to add to the list is Insecure. Which I think we've discussed it at length on the show. But the reason why I think it's subversive is... If you've never seen the show, the premise is that there is like this couple Issa Rae, who plays the character, Issa Dee and her boyfriend, Lawrence, played by Jay Ellis. And they're like approaching 30. A couple of like five years or some like a long period of time. And there is like, this kind of like friction within their relationship. And this kind of like sets off this show of like, five seasons. And I think like you sort of expect... I mean, this isn't like not like a unique or one of a kind story. However, I think that the show really diverges from the traditional format by like, exploring relationships in like really, I think, interesting and nuanced ways. 

Prakash  19:01  
And across the five seasons, it becomes really clear that the main storyline, in fact, or the main like love story, is really between Issa and her best friend, Molly played by Yvonne Orji, like rather than the storyline between her and Lawrence who have like a kind of tumultuous relationship across the five seasons. I don't want to give any spoilers for people, people haven't watched it. But I think that the way it really kind of like, I think it's getting more common to sort of like blend the genres of comedy and drama. But I thought that this was done like, particularly well in this show. Although the ending to me like that, like fell a little bit flat. More into like the predictable category. 

Prakash  19:39  
I thought that every season I was really kind of like surprised to see the turns that it took. Cause I think that there are some... I think a lot of shows when they want to, yeah, be subversive will like take like full like 180 curves or kind of do... Make the choices that are most extreme in the opposite direction to like create the kind of subversion. Whereas this works within the genre, but like, I think, does like good work at like pulling apart certain conventions of TV. Like removing the focus from the romance to other kinds of relationships. The ways that the other characters, even those who are in the background, kind of have like, much more like fleshed out stories. 

Prakash  20:21  
Of course, the cast is like primarily Black folk. And there are quite a number shows that have like all Black casts, but I think not very many are like, in my opinion, are doing, or are able to like really show like, a diversity of blackness within the Cast and characters. But I think we really see quite a range of people like, yeah, with a differing opinions, styles, backgrounds, like within, you know, the broad scope of blackness. And it doesn't often touch on that like, super directly, but I think also like, issues of like colorism, class, do come up in the show. And if you're, I think, like more trained to see it then you see it. And if not, you can, I think, just to kind of enjoy it more simply. There's lots of like, cultural references about it in the show. Lots of really fun cameos. And there's a lot of attention paid to the details, but I think makes it very interesting for rewatching because you can then spend more time just like looking at the scenes. Really beautiful cinematography, especially in the last season. Yeah, so shout out to Insecure. 

Kristen  21:29  
Oh, that's nice. 

Prakash  21:30  
You next. What's number, what's number three?

Kristen  21:32  
Oh, god. Okay, so caveat that we are, well, I am limited by what TV I watch. And if you know me, you know that I'm very particular. And once I love a thing, I will obsess about it and rewatch it many, many, many times, instead of finding something new to watch. And so of the things that I have watched recently, or been rewatching recently, something that I would put on this list as like really good TV is... and shout out to the friend who is watching this with me at a very slow pace because boundaries and pain and we're acknowledging all of that. So the show is Killing Eve. I really, really enjoy it. I've really, really enjoyed it. 

Prakash  22:29  
Okay, interesting. 

Kristen  22:30  
It's so good.

Prakash  22:33  
I watched most of it until the last season.

Kristen  22:35  
Yes, please don't spoil it. We haven't gotten there yet.

Prakash  22:38  
Well I didn't finish it and I'm not going to. 

Kristen  22:40  
Oh, dang. Well. So it would not be on your list.

Prakash  22:45  
I'm interested to know what you like about it. But I know that the show has gotten a lot of criticism for engaging in queerbaiting. If you're not familiar usually when people talk about queerbaiting, they're referring to characters on a TV show or a movie that like are sort of like presented as if like they could be queer or have like some kind of like, love or romance narrative between them. But then it never really comes to fruition. And this is sort of a used to bait queer audiences into watching particular programme. There's obviously a lot of tension between the character of Eve who was like, if you've never seen it, she's kind of she's an agent of MI5 or MI6 or something in the UK, played by Sandra Oh. And this international assassin named Villanelle, who was played by Jody Comer. I can't remember but who was in one of my favourite shows called My Mad Fat Diary, which didn't make it to the list but is a very good show. Would recommend. Yeah, what makes it stand out for you?

Kristen  23:47  
Because I expected it to be much more procedural than it is. Because there's so much going on in every scene like underlying underneath, um, the the oh my god when people talk? The dialogue. Shit. Yeah, so there's so much happening outside of the dialogue. I think that the actors as well do such a really good job of like signalling things that we don't know are coming yet but that are. Yeah, I think it's very, very well acted. Very, very well acted. Also, it's just pretty. Like whoever's doing the cinematography, Good job. Whoever is picking the outfits and the costumes. Great job. Yeah, I think really for me, it's the acting pulls me in. The queerbaiting as, yes, it's definitely there and it makes me laugh every time.

Prakash  24:48  
But its pulling you in. It got you. You're watching.

Kristen  24:50  
I mean, I was watching before the queerbaiting but the queerbaiting is also there and is a point of amusement for me. Because outside of the queerbaiting, it's just the characters are great. The acting is top notch. Yeah.

Prakash  25:05  
Okay. Yeah I also agree with that. I thinkthe acting is really great. I love, I think it's really really well cast. Maybe we'll revisit the conversation. 

Kristen  25:14  
Yeah, let's revisit when I'm done. Yeah, because like also caveat I'm not done watching it.

Prakash  25:19  
How far are you?

Kristen  25:20  
But I will continue to watch it. I think we're in the middle of season three.

Prakash  25:25  
Okay, we've been talking for a bit so maybe this episode will end here and then we will do a part two where we finish our list. In the meantime, if you, dear listeners, have things you'd like us to watch or things that you think should make the list.

Kristen  25:38  
Yeah, if you're like how dare you have not spoken about this? Let us know what that is.

Prakash  25:42  
Yeah, you can DM us on Instagram or on Twitter. The handles are in the little end credits. And yeah, until then, stay in the know. 

Kristen  26:02  
Bye. 

Kristen  26:02  
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