...About Digital Blackface?

Following our last episode, we talk about the phenomenon of "Digital Blackface", what it means, and if it's ok to use memes of Black people if you're not yourself Black. 

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Kristen  0:16  
Hey kids and welcome to Do the Kids Know? That is this show where we talk about race, media, pop culture, and politics in triple k Canada. I am one of your hosts, Kristen. On my screen is Prakash. 

Prakash  0:31  
Hello. 

Kristen  0:31  
Hello. And today we are back for part two of our digital blackface episode. We intended to talk about it in one and then ended up just talking about blackface. So if you haven't listened to part one, you should stop here and go listen to that, because you will need the context for the discussion we're about to have today. But before we do that, Prakash, do you have another way that costar made you feel like crap this week?

Prakash  1:03  
Well, last week it told me, you don't have to wait to reach out. And I was like, asking for help? Reaching out? I don't do that. That's not part of my wheelhouse.

Kristen  1:18  
It's really not. It should be. You, you literally wait until things are breaking and then you go, it's breaking. And we go, we could have helped you before now. But here's the help. Even actually, sometimes when you tell us it's breaking, you're not even asking for help. You're just like, oh my god, everything's falling apart. And we're like, Okay, do you need assistance? And you're like, No, I'm fine. Just acknowledge that everything is falling apart.

Prakash  1:40  
I'm just stating facts. There's this TikTok that I'm sure I sent to you, I sent it to everybody, because I thought it was so funny. But basically, it's like, it's like a one person skit. This one person is like playing two characters like himself and a friend. And he's like, Oh, my therapist is going to be so proud. Because I've, you know, been really opening up and being more vulnerable. And the friend character is like, is it really being vulnerable? Or are you just sharing facts about yourself? And it goes back to him and he's just like, nervous laughter like, hehehe, and I was like, hmm, me. 

Kristen  2:15  
Yep.

Prakash  2:15  
I think this is this has been a problem of mine that I realized, in COVID, season one, in which...

Kristen  2:21  
Season one. 

Prakash  2:21  
...I think many, many people with whom I have shared lots of facts about my life with construed a kind of closeness, that we in fact, did not share. But...

Kristen  2:35  
Well, because generally, when you share facts about your life, and you share parts of yourself with other people, it's seen as vulnerability and vulnerability means trust and trust means building something together.

Prakash  2:51  
Yeah. Not my intention. Anyway, we're going to continue, as you mentioned, our conversation on blackface. But we're talking specifically about the phenomenon, concept of digital blackface. And, again, we have committed to not doing research so I don't have a formal definition. But if you Google it, I'm sure it will come up. 

Kristen  3:10  
It's fine. So then how would you... Cause we just talked about blackface. So what makes blackface digital for you? Yeah, we don't care about the... What makes it digital for you?

Prakash  3:21  
Okay, so actually, the reason why I wanted to talk about this because I read a tweet, like many, many, many moons ago, that made me start thinking about this. Which was someone tweeted that if you're not Black, you should not be using gifs or memes of Black folk, because it was digital blackface. 

Kristen  3:37  
Oh, yeah. Okay, I remember that. Yeah. 

Prakash  3:39  
Yeah, you're like putting on, you're using a Black person's face, to represent your own and some sort of like, emotional expression, whether or not that is like, meant to be like, whatever, whatever that person's expressing in the photo like, that is not, you are not that person. And so you are again, this idea of like, kind of like a body snatch. Like you're using someone else's face, persona, energy, that you do not have, to like portray yourself and that is the argument is like that is a way of portraying blackface. And I was like, interesting. I had never thought about it that way before. 

Prakash  4:18  
And I will say for myself, I think I'm not really sure if I am 100% on board. 

Kristen  4:24  
Yeah, that was my question. 

Prakash  4:26  
Big disclaimer, I'm not you know, an authority on blackface and it is true that I'm not Black so like yeah, maybe I don't have to use all of these like these like reaction memes and gifs of Black folk. And if you know me, I have I have a certain favorite go to reaction memes. 

Kristen  4:46  
You do. 

Prakash  4:47  
My favorite being the one of what's her name? Emma Stone like... 

Kristen  4:51  
Yeah, slumped over.

Prakash  4:52  
...eating a burger or like... If we've ever texted I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. 

Kristen  4:52  
Yeah. 

Prakash  5:00  
And, but some, I feel that there are occasions in which, yeah, I'm not sure if I wholly agree with the statement, especially because with how memes work. Like, if it's like, a piece of a larger rhetoric and I'm using the meme as a reference for the situation, okay, for an example. I'm sure like, you and I know, this picture of Monique in the pink shirt.

Kristen  5:31  
Mmm hmm. 

Prakash  5:32  
I think people who are familiar with what this is, like, know that even with the picture alone, you know what it is. The like... 

Kristen  5:38  
Yeah. 

Prakash  5:38  
I would like to see it. 

Kristen  5:40  
Yeah. 

Prakash  5:40  
I think like that as like as like a meme as like, you know, this piece of content that exists kind of like, has its life on its own, that it's like referential. That it's like, I'm not, I'm clearly not trying to say like, I am Monique, or something or like, you know, it's not that, it's not because like, Monique, like blackness is the butt of the joke. It's like that she has like the throw, this line that was a throwaway line that just became like, so... 

Kristen  6:07  
Iconic now.

Prakash  6:07  
...funny and iconic in the cultural memory, that there isn't like another, like substitution for that. I mean, I could write, I would like to see it. But even then. 

Kristen  6:11  
It's not as punchy. We know what you're talking about anyway.

Prakash  6:22  
And Monique is a comedian. 

Kristen  6:24  
Yeah. 

Prakash  6:25  
An Oscar winning comedian.

Kristen  6:27  
Put some respect on that name. Yass. 

Prakash  6:29  
Yeah, an Academy Award winning actor, comedian. Netflix won her her money. So yeah, I think that there are exceptions. I'm not sure if this is a rule necessarily that people have like, agreed upon. Clearly people do not agree because people are out here, you know, doing do other things. But... 

Kristen  6:47  
Yeah.

Prakash  6:47  
I'm curious about your thoughts.

Kristen  6:49  
It's interesting. Because I think the sticking point for me is that with memes, with context, with representations in this way, like, I don't know that there's enough representations, that I'm going to think of only sending Black memes, or that I would be super concerned necessarily, if like yourself, or one of our close friends sent a meme that was a Black person. Like it's a call to that, like, I don't think you're doing it to misrepresent yourself or to falsely represent yourself. You're doing it to call on the context from which that meme, that picture exists, so that we can further our conversation. 

Kristen  7:43  
Yeah, so I don't, not to say I don't disagree, because I feel like there may be like, I don't talk to a lot of people. Everybody that I talk to I like them. I don't know, we're only having good conversations. So there are potentially contexts in which someone could send a meme of a Black person and I would be like, no, don't do that. But it has not happened to me as of yet. So not saying that I disagree with the person who tweeted this, because potentially, yes. But I find that in the conversations I'm having, it's not... I don't know. Whenever we use it, we're calling to the context of the thing. So it doesn't really... And then the other thing is that like, we fall on each other to send the memes. So who sent... The person sending the meme actually sometimes is irrelevant. Because we were all searching for it. You know what I mean? Like, we all know, the response that we want to have in this moment. And the response is this Black person from this show. Yeah, whoever sends the response, it's irrelevant. But aware that that is very context specific to us, very context specific to the people that I speak to. But all of that to say that I've... Until, literally until you sent the tweet, it didn't even occur to me that that is a form of digital blackface. Yeah.

Prakash  9:03  
After reading the screen, and I was like, you know, thinking more critically and probably don't need to... It's kind of like the arguments or discussions around like the language use as language evolves. So it's like, okay, yeah, it might be an inconvenient for me to like, learn how to, and this is like a big, big scare quotes, like, it might be inconvenient for me to like, learn new terminology around like, gender or sexuality or whatever, like learning how to use other pronouns like they, them or xe, xem, or you know there are lots of pronouns for people who, who are gender non-conforming or genderqueer or whatever. Even terminology like gender non-conforming, genderqueer like these things, like you know, were not in the popular zeitgeist 10 years ago, even. Or like revamping your language to to be more anti-ableist. So words like crazy, which is such a profoundly normalized part of everyday language for most English speakers. But then yeah does have ablest roots. Other words like, lame. Also, like, I don't think people really associate it with like the, the act of being like, like the traditional definition of the word lame, like I think we tend to just assume that when people use it, they mean like boring, like uninspired, that kind of thing. But that does have these ableist roots. And so when people advocate for, for us to, like, no longer use these words, I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I don't really see it this way that I don't, I don't really see as being ableist when I use it. However, if someone else might be, like, hurt by these words, like, it just has little bit of effort on my part to change my language. And like, at the end of the day, like I'm still fine, like nothing. I'm not affected by changing my words.

Prakash  9:51  
Which is why I bring up the context in which like, I am sending memes and in which I'm receiving them. Because if I, I do know that if I was ever in conversation with someone, and they like, sent me a meme that I was like, nah, you're not allowed to use this, they would do that work of like, I will not use this meme again, because somebody has clocked that this is not okay. Whereas I can definitely see situations where that's not going to happen. Which is why like, there's a whole other field to this opinion. Because the same could be reversed. Like I do send that meme of the white guy who's blinking. And he has really like pale hair, and you can't really see his eyebrows. I do send that meme. If somebody said, don't, then I would find something else to send. I've never thought about that. Or I hadn't until you sent that tweet.

Kristen  11:22  
I don't think the issue is like using like media like gifts or reaction memes of someone who's not your race. I don't think that is the issue, necessarily. 

Kristen  11:52  
No. 

Prakash  11:53  
Because it's like, there are not that many, like Brown celebs who are out here making faces that would be appropriate reactions. So like me using that Emma Stone all the time. It's like, there's no, there's no like punching up, you know, there's not, it's not reverse racist for me to use Emma Stone's, photo, not something white face. Like, that's not that's not a thing. Again, like racism evolved.

Kristen  12:16  
It's not, but I can see situations where somebody's gonna tell you it could be is what I'm saying.

Prakash  12:21  
They could tell it to me, I'm not gonna... 

Kristen  12:24  
But see? That's why I'm like, there's nuance to this. Because I know that if I ever said to someone don't send that the people who I'm corresponding with would. But there are definitely situations where that cannot be true. Would not be true. Just like you right now doubling down on continuing to send Emma Stone.

Prakash  12:44  
I guess it really depends on like, about, yeah, who and why, if there's a reason for someone to say, oh, you shouldn't be using like, a white person's face to whatever, then it'd be like, I disagree. And maybe we could talk about it further. You know, if if that would, were to arise at some point. Again, yeah, which I highly doubt because in order for power to be abused, it needs to be a power differential in which there is one Emma Stone is, Emma Stone is rich and white, and powerful, and has already, you know, been in yellowface, like. Not really in yellowface, but she did depict a character who was, I think, meant to be half Indigenous Hawaiian and half white. 

Kristen  13:26  
Yes, she did. 

Prakash  13:26  
But she has...

Kristen  13:28  
It's okay, I've written her off since The Help so it doesn't matter. 

Prakash  13:33  
Pain. 

Kristen  13:34  
Anyway, what I had like interrupted you to say was that like, in a situation where somebody is going to bring that up with you, they already don't understand the power differential, which I guess brings me back to the tweet. Because then what you're saying, maybe what we're arguing, is that it's not the person in the meme. But the power behind the person sending the meme. Their place within these systems with it, within which we live. Yes, that's English.

Prakash  14:08  
So I think, you know, something like the Monique meme, you know, of the, I would like to see it, or something like Keke Palmer, being like, sorry, to this man. Or, things that I think I tend to see them and kind of like neutral expressions of like that individual, especially if it's a celebrity, you know? Them just like being out in the world. Where I like do see the issue of like, how it becomes in my opinion, like more like blackfacey, is when like you as someone who is like not Black or not even from the same kind of like, social echelon or not from the same kind of like community as like a lot of these like anonymous Black creators or people who get turned into memes, especially when they're not celebrities, and you're using it kind of like with the minstrel show blackface. It's like, you're using these people's images, because you find something like, humorous or punchy about the way that their blackness gets characterized in the image or the GIF. For example, an image that I think is so funny that I would never use is the one where it's basically like my version of the Emma Stone meme that you use.

Kristen  15:27  
Oh, the one that I send all the time. Yeah, with the Black lady. Yeah. True. Her boob is on the counter. She's in the same position as Emma Stone. She's got a gun in one hand and alcohol in the other. Yeah.

Prakash  15:40  
I think I kind of Hennessy or something or tequila. 

Kristen  15:42  
Yeah. 

Prakash  15:43  
And it's so funny because I can really picture because you and our other friend, Bhan, shout out to Bhan, both use it a lot. 

Kristen  15:49  
We do. 

Prakash  15:50  
Because I think I really picture both of you in that same position. Like, if you had a gun and tequila, I can see it, you know? Like, the boob resting like, it's so, it's so funny, because it's like... 

Kristen  16:00  
It's also that like, we sent it for quite a long time before we realized her boob was resting on the counter.

Prakash  16:08  
The vibes in that photo are immaculate. 

Kristen  16:10  
They are. 

Prakash  16:11  
However, like, I think for myself, like me using it would be inappropriate given that I am not boobalicious Black woman. And the thing is about, like, you know, the sort of like the ways that we interpret things like guns and tequila as like ghetto or as a part of a kind of like Black subculture that evokes a certain kind of image of blackness in which I am, like, not privy to. And this person is not celebrity this, like the image itself, it tells, a picture's worth 1000 words. 

Kristen  16:43  
It really is. 

Prakash  16:43  
And let me tell you, there is a dissertation in this photo. 

Kristen  16:46  
Yes, yes there is. 

Prakash  16:47  
I think it's great. But again, like I can, I can, I can appreciate it. But it's not for me to use. And that's like, that's how I feel about it for myself.

Kristen  16:55  
Well see that brings back to, I think we ended the last episode this way. With my like, I don't know him articulating it the right way, but like not everything is for everybody. Some things just need to be left alone. But then it's like how do you discern what should be left alone? Like you just inherently know, I'm not going to send this photo. This photo is not for me to use. But being able to discern that is hard for quite a lot of people as we can see. Just taking a gander on the internet. 

Prakash  17:31  
And I think where we see like an interesting problematic arise is within TikTok. In which not only like in other social media, we have yeah, people using images of Black people to punctuate their reactions to things. But now and for people not familiar with TikTok, there are two components to a video. There's the actual video component, but the sound can be extracted from the video, and you can then reuse someone's sound overtop of your own video. And so for comedic effect, many people, many a young white folk, but all kinds, all kinds of people will like use viral audio that often comes from like a young Black woman, and will then like use that audio on top of whatever video they're making. It could be like, it could be literally anything like a cooking video. It could be like an outfit of the day video. It could be them like lip syncing in that video, or like lip synching like the audio from yeah, from the original creator. To me, there's something like and I think it takes the idea of the digital blackface, like the body snatching, into like another level in which like you are literally taking the words of a Black person out of their mouth, out of that context. And like putting your, your own nonblack skin over it. Especially when it's like words or a phrase or context or a story that would never have applied to you or you'd never be able to say yourself because it either maybe includes the N word or it's like about a, you know, a situation which like you would never live, like...

Kristen  19:16  
This is just making me wonder if we can still call it blackface? Because the thing that made blackface blackface was propetting, propetting, oh god, profiting off of a caricature of a debased image of, a playing up of, the things that made Black people other. Whereas this is appropriation of the things that make Black people Black to repurpose it under a different race.

Prakash  19:46  
I'm inclined to think that it is still like in the realm of blackface because, yeah, because you were using like, yeah, like Black features. In this case, like, you know, distinct voices, accents, like stories, whatever that are linked to, like, because you can go back and look at the original video for like these for for these sounds. So you can see what the source is. Or some of them are like, yeah, just have become so ubiquitous and like the popular culture world of TikTok that like that, yeah, you would you'd like you would know, just by hearing it like, what the, what the video source is. And so there is sort of, like, from hearing the audio there is like an after image, or this is how I experience that. Like, I feel like I like I hear the audio. So I see like an after image of the original video. And then I'm seeing again, this like recreation. Sometimes they are like recreations. It's like, you know, like, I don't think this applies to, you know, it's not like people doing Lizzo's About Damn Time dance moves. Obviously that is like, meant, the intention of that of you know, music, especially that one is to be circulated. It's for people to like, do the dance, add their own spins to it, you know? Like, that is not something that is like a sacred Black practice, you know? It is like, open for interpretation. Lizzo shares all sorts of people doing it. So that's different. But something like, I have a good example.

Kristen  21:18  
Okay.

Prakash  21:18  
There's someone called Sailor J, who was a YouTuber, and had these videos that I thought were so fucking funny. She would do these, like really short, like videos, I can't remember what they are called but it was like basically these, like, get ready with me videos, but you do them in the perspective of like, different astrological signs. 

Kristen  21:18  
Okay. 

Prakash  21:39  
And it was so chaotic. It was so funny. And then she went on to like, be an actor on like a couple of TV shows. And now she has like gone back to making like content creation videos, but not on YouTube. I think they're only on Patreon. But so I think I think the videos on YouTube are now gone. But people I guess had saved them and have like, used the audio from those videos that like really like play up all these different like characters that that she portrays, and like, some of them are like, you know, like, quote unquote meant to be ghetto. I think that she had a series called tales of like the hood altar or something like that in which she plays this, like, really these really entertaining characters. And then so even if you've never seen the videos, it's like it's clear from the sound that like this is like a young Black girl doing these like performances. And people like without her consent, because she is not on TikTok, how they've taken those audio, and like done their own videos to them. But the, but the sounds so like culturally specific and also are the like creative intellectual property of another person who like did not consent to have that on TikTok, and then white people now are like building their platform by using this extremely funny audio that comes from this young Black woman who has that content available for purchase, you know, through her Patreon. And yet, I still see it as part of this, like network of like, modern body snatching type activities. Which I think it's like, within the realm of both appropriation as well as, like, as well as being like a kind of digital blackface.

Kristen  23:24  
I see. Okay, interesting. I'm not on this app. So I have no context and I don't think, uh, intelligent things to share. Um, but yeah, what you're describing is the context of blackface for me. Yeah.

Prakash  23:49  
So what is the takeaway? Should people who are not Black stop using Black gifs?

Kristen  23:56  
Um, I'm not gonna say no, but I think, like with anything... Or I mean, I'm not gonna say yes. I don't know. I don't remember what your question was. Should they stop using? Yeah, I'm not gonna say yes. But I'm also not going to say no. I think that as with anything that we discuss or talk about, it's about people being open minded and aware of the people they are around and the people that are conversing with. And so something that is okay with one person will not be okay with the next person and you need to be okay with that. I think it's about people having open conversations about what is or is not okay. And like when you are told something is not okay, don't immediately be defensive. Ask them why, if they're open to that, like, think through the check you just received and don't think about how much it might inconvenience you to accommodate what this person has asked you.

Prakash  24:55  
Yeah, I think that's really key. Like just because no one has ever brought that up with you. Like, for instance, in me, like, I can look back at my phone and see like, all the images I've tagged with like gifs or reactions and like, looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah, and yeah, some of these are pretty like, characteristic of like, typically like Black women aesthetics, like the Patrick the star, whatever, Patrick Star from Spongebob with like the nails and lashes. It's like, okay, this is funny, but, but it's referential to like, like, ghetto-sized Black woman. And so this is not like that is not the aesthetic I wear every day. And so I should not be using this GIF, you know? There are there other ways to express whatever that that gif is trying to express. And just because no one has ever brought this up with you to your face does not mean that is not affecting the people around you. 

Prakash  25:47  
So if you now are hearing this and like reflecting on your own, like internet behaviors, if you have someone who like you're close to who you think would be able to, like, openly sustain this conversation, just to like, ask like, hey, like, you know, I have been using these gifs in our conversations like, you can be honest, like, does this make you feel any kind of way? Like, because I 100% like, you know, will stop. And maybe even just like you having that thought, will already start to change some of your behaviors. Maybe it'll help you like, cause I think you know, with any kind of communication technology or tool, like the words you use, like verbal language, body language, emojis, gifs, you know, like all of these things have like shifting meaning. And as we think critically about, yeah, the words we use, I think there's no reason why we can't extend that further and to thinking about the emojis we use, like, what skin color emoji do you use? If you use one at all. If you don't, you know, why don't you? You know, interesting.

Kristen  26:51  
I'm also thinking about, like, I don't know, for those who can't have conversations with the people around them, or they attempt to engage in conversations with the people around them, but they're just like, not down for that which like, is their right. I think even just being self reflective, self reflexive? Whichever one is the appropriate one for English. Thinking before you send the thing, not to make you hyper aware, but makes you aware of what you were sending. So like thinking before you send Patrick Star with long nails and like, I think he has like green hair or something like. Thinking before you send it that if you question whether you should maybe don't.

Prakash  27:30  
The same way we like analyze, like media or like a TV show, oh like to why? Oh, I didn't like it. Why? And then when you're making a message, you know, like, you pull up the Patrick gif and you're like, what am I trying to convey with this? Is there another image I have in my arsenal that can do the same kind of communicative work without relying on these kind of like, caricature aspects of Black womanhood? Or like hood aesthetics or whatever? Especially if you're not, if that's not as an aesthetic that you yourself carry, because I'm not good at like, not all these things are like locked to blackness necessarily.

Kristen  28:13  
No, definitely not. 

Prakash  28:14  
Like maybe you are a nail tech. And so you are someone who has like fierce acrylic nails and lashes and then sure, go off with that Patrick. Someone like me with, you know, my natural born lashes and nails. Maybe not. Anyway, so if this is new to you. Sorry to this man.

Prakash  28:42  
But yeah, hopefully, this discussion proved whether you agree or not, hopefully it was interesting. Something to think about.

Kristen  28:50  
Yeah, cause I don't think we came to an agreement either. So...

Prakash  28:54  
Bo, but we don't have to because we're post-research. This is less, we are, we are... 

Kristen  28:59  
Post-research? 

Prakash  29:00  
Post-research, post education. We just be talking.

Kristen  29:03  
Oh my god, don't kill me.

Prakash  29:06  
Okay, well, thanks, y'all. I will see you in two weeks for a new episode. If you have episode ideas. Things you want us to talk about maybe things you want us to review books, movie, TV. We can do that. We're open. Because yeah, post research.

Kristen  29:20  
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's throw that out there. Sure. 

Prakash  29:25  
Stay in the know.

Both  29:28  
Bye.

Kristen  29:37  
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