...About Blackface?

Transcript available here.

Part 1 of 2, we lay down some historical and contemporary information around the practice of blackface, why it's problematic and where there might be room to have nuanced discussions about the use of black body paint.

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

Find us: @dothekidsknow (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok)
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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Prakash  0:15  
Hey kids, and welcome back to Do the Kids Know? That is the show where we talk about race, media, politics, and pop culture in triple K Canada. I'm Prakash. I'm one of your hosts and with me on my Zoom screen is Kristen. 

Kristen  0:32  
Sup. 

Prakash  0:33  
And we are back again. Every time surprised. 

Kristen  0:39  
Honestly. 

Prakash  0:40  
That we're still here. People still listen. 

Kristen  0:43  
Honestly. 

Prakash  0:45  
Yeah, so we'll talk about things. That thing will be in the title of this episode. Something about digital blackface, which we will get into, but before we get into it, Kristen, do you want to tell us how co-star read you today? Or this week?

Kristen  1:03  
Well, I can tell you how it read me today. 

Prakash  1:05  
Great. 

Kristen  1:06  
43 minutes ago, co-star told me that I need to believe in myself before I can believe in other people.

Prakash  1:13  
Oh, my God. What kind of...

Kristen  1:23  
The audacity. 

Prakash  1:24  
...Disney channel movie moral this?

Kristen  1:27  
What? 

Prakash  1:28  
Wow. 

Kristen  1:30  
Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's, uh, that happened. How did co-star read you this week?

Prakash  1:37  
It also read me today. 30 minutes ago. It told me, not every issue is worth your attention.

Kristen  1:48  
I mean...

Prakash  1:48  
Screaming, crying, throwing up. 

Kristen  1:50  
Wow. It's not wrong but also it's rude.

Prakash  1:54  
Listen, I'm fully just, I wrote in the newsletter, I have abandoned Team Do Less.

Kristen  2:00  
Yeah. I was very concerned for you.

Prakash  2:03  
I've accepted my membership in Team Too Much.

Kristen  2:06  
I haven't. I haven't. Its not sustainable. 

Prakash  2:12  
Well, co-star, good times. And now segue into our main topic discussion, which is digital blackface?

Kristen  2:18  
Yes. Yes. Would you like to describe? Nope. Define digital blackface for us?

Prakash  2:25  
Yeah, I'm sure. So first I'm going to start with blackface. If you need examples, just look up our dear Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, plus blackface.

Kristen  2:34  
I knew you were gonna use that as an example.

Prakash  2:37  
The fact that this man continues to be a prime minister, and could not even tell could not confirm when journalists asked him how many times he had done this. 

Kristen  2:49  
Oh, but he knows.

Prakash  2:49  
It's done this so many times. 

Kristen  2:51  
Yeah. Yeah.

Prakash  2:52  
I'm like, because if it was just, you know, a one time thing that you can then you could confidently say, it was one time it was stupid. I'm so sorry. But no.

Kristen  3:02  
No, he's like, I won't confirm or deny. Because if I deny and you find the other times, I'm screwed. So I will just not say anything and hope that you don't find the other times. Yeah.

Prakash  3:14  
Yeah. 

Kristen  3:15  
Yeah. 

Prakash  3:16  
For some context on blackface as we know it. And you know, a la Trudeau. Back in ye old days, insert dates here. I mean, Wikipedia will tell you.

Kristen  3:28  
Its just you use ye old days for so many days.

Prakash  3:32  
I mean, time is relative.

Kristen  3:34  
Sure. Okay. Yeah. 

Prakash  3:36  
Yeah. Anyway, I'll just give you some keywords to Google. And then Wikipedia will tell you the actual closing dates. But there was something called minstrel shows in which people including Black people would like paint themselves Black and do these, like, caricatures of like, poor southern country folk, and this was used because and Kristen, you're, you're like a literal historian, so you can tell me what I where I mess up. But there were like Black musicians in the South who were becoming very popular, with their traveling music shows who are not minstrels, white people were like, how dare they do things, be successful, be artists. And so to make fun of these musicians, white people started, like, literally painting their skin black, with, like, overpronounced like red lips, you know, these other kinds of like character, like, very degrading character, character, I can't say of that word.

Kristen  4:35  
Cariacatures?

Prakash  4:36  
Caricatures of Black folk, of these performers. And then these minstrel shows of these, like white people dressing up in blackface, became extremely popular across the US, also across Canada, to the point in which like, some Black folk would also do blackface to again, be a part of this like traveling musical industry. And then so in the end, like, blackface becomes a shorthand for a lot of these like racist ideologies around the lack of worth, supposedly, of Black folk in the US and Canada.

Kristen  5:14  
I think it's also that like, blackface started before the minstrel shows, and was part of actively not allowing Black people to earn a living to do things. Yeah, because, like, we can trace blackface to before the south and white people being upset that Black people had freedom and those things. And it furthered stereotypes, because white people who had no idea how Black people were acting, would pretend to be them. And then in order for Black people to make money, they then had to play up these stereotypes. So it became like a loop as well in the West, which also it evolved from before then white people not letting Black people do things, or them, forcing slaves to do things and then doing caricatures and stereotypes based on the behavior that they forced the slaves to do.

Prakash  6:10  
Yeah, it's like a word sort of, like representation of like body snatching. And like, this kind of like, performance of blackness that is, like, deeply rooted, in, like so many compounded racist ideologies.

Kristen  6:28  
Exactly. Like to bring it into the topic for today. Blackface is about taking pieces of a culture of a people that is not yours and profiting from it by putting that on display for everyone else. And profit can be not necessarily money. Ot can be I don't know, what do you call that when people- Influence. Haha.

Prakash  6:52  
Yeah, it can be for influence, for clout, for laughs, for attention. You know, like, Justin Trudeau, like, wearing blackface. He was not performing to get money, but, like in one of the photos, I think it's like some kind of Christmas, not Christmas party. 

Kristen  7:08  
Halloween party? Halloween. The other one? 

Prakash  7:13  
Halloween. 

Kristen  7:14  
Can you imagine a Christmas party? Yeah.

Prakash  7:18  
I mean, have you seen those like those those like very racist Santa Claus statues?

Kristen  7:23  
That's why I said, I can imagine a Christmas party as well. 

Prakash  7:26  
It could have been. That could have been one of the many times here, he cannot disclose in which he, you know... 

Kristen  7:32  
Yeah. 

Prakash  7:33  
...put on a little bronzer. A little.

Kristen  7:36  
Used the whole package of foundation that was 15 shades too dark.

Prakash  7:41  
A little Benjamin Moore. 

Kristen  7:43  
That's paint. 

Prakash  7:45  
I know.

Kristen  7:45  
Okay, okay. I just like imagined like, someone with a roller that you would use for the wall just like rolling brown paint onto him.

Prakash  7:59  
Listen, like that is the color you use to like stain a deck. It's bad.

Kristen  8:10  
There is also something here about like blackface, but in relation to Indigenous people that like further discussion further, you know, research that we're not talking about that right now. 

Prakash  8:23  
And this is part of the like, ecosystem of other kinds of modes of cultural appropriation. So you mentioned like Indigenous folks, so things like wearing headdresses, eagle feathers. Literally pretending to be Indigenous, because you are like, 1/242 Navajo, or something. Like.

Kristen  8:48  
It also, like, let's flip back to Hollywood for a minute, like early Hollywood. Not even early like, up to like 70s, 80s, white people pretending to be Indian, you know, just throw on a little bronzer. It's fine.

Prakash  9:06  
I mean, that's literally still happening. Like. 

Kristen  9:09  
Yeah. 

Prakash  9:09  
You know, a lot more behind the scenes. Like, you know, Michelle Latimer. That's a whole thing that I think still I'm not sure if its been resolved in court or anything but her show was cancelled, which, which I think is unfortunate. Because apparently it's a it was a great show. Trickster. Haven't seen it but its on CBC gem.

Kristen  9:29  
Yeah, I haven't seen it either. Yeah, I also, there's also the piece here of like, Hollywood perpetuating blackface for other races by you know, like having Mexican people play Native Americans and things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Prakash  9:45  
But I think that there's something like because there there are also like other kinds of faces. So like as you explained, like white people pretending to be or like portraying Native Americans.

Kristen  9:55  
Yeah, that feels different from...

Prakash  10:00  
Yeah, I mean it is different but we do terminology around this. So like, yeah, people, like pretendians or like or like on TV, like, you know, putting on darker makeup to look like they're Indigenous, right? We call this like redface,. Breakfast at Tiffany's, that man dressing up as an Asian man, yellowface. And so all of these are rooted in some kind of, because like, you know, as we have talked about, like race is a social construct, depending on the time of year, our outside exposure, Kristen and I, like we could one of us could be darker than the other one of us, you know, could be a lighter. That doesn't necessarily like change our like racial identity, but often people I mean, yeah, I don't want to get into the whole like, where you're from situation, but it's like, sometimes very easily clocked as being Indian. Other times, like depending on context, people are often unsure, like when I was in Cuba. The way that everybody was trying to, you know, a hablamos espanol and I was like, like, no, hablo soy, Canadian, or whatever. So all this to say that, like just the bronzer alone is not enough to put on a face. It is always accompanied by...

Kristen  11:11  
Gestures, expressions, accents. Yeah.

Prakash  11:15  
And there's something particularly sinister about about blackface and the way that yeah, the, the kind of like racialized caricatures are often based in like, these very animalistic, you know, assumptions of blackness, a lot of these, like stereotypes. I'm not gonna, like repeat them all, but But yeah. It's like, rooted in something that's like, that's, like, particularly dark that we don't necessarily see in other kinds of like, yellowface, or, I mean, we can.

Kristen  11:47  
Yeah. 

Prakash  11:47  
I'll retract that statement. 

Kristen  11:49  
Yeah. 

Prakash  11:49  
But just say that there are like, certain routes of blackface that might be a little bit more like long standing as explained with like the minstrel shows and even the preminstrel era in the US. But then so of course, as things evolve over time, like, unless you're Trudeau, you would have learned that, that just kind of like, you know, quote, unquote, traditional blackface is extremely unacceptable in society. Although yet every Halloween celebrities, dawn on their Sherman Williams and walk out. Because it's like, if people do not know, if you have a character, you know, cosplay or something that you, you know, you like really enjoy. I don't know, like LeBron James, you know, that you could...

Kristen  12:33  
Just wear his clothes.

Prakash  12:34  
...just wear a jersey. Like.

Kristen  12:36  
I just, it's particularly painful for me, because I've really like Star Trek and science fiction and space, and those cosplayers are entirely different races, like, non-existent alien beings, and they do that through their costume. So like, I don't understand why we can't portray a person who's not our race through costume. That doesn't involve being racist, like, I don't get it.

Prakash  13:13  
Yeah, it's like, I don't need you to paint yourself black for me to know that you are like Michelle Obama, like I can talk about the sleeveless dress, you know? Like, there are other ways that we can, like signify who we're trying to portray. That is like, you know, meant to be a portrayal. 

Kristen  13:29  
Yeah. 

Prakash  13:30  
Anyway...

Kristen  13:30  
Although.

Prakash  13:30  
...all this is the say...

Kristen  13:32  
I was gonna bring up a very specific Star Trek blackface, but it's okay. 

Prakash  13:36  
Okay.

Kristen  13:36  
Its okay. We can move on.

Prakash  13:40  
I think there may be there may be some nuance to talk about like, what is and what is not blackface? I think sometimes there is some... There, I think there can be some nuance because, maybe this is, you know, going to be the time the episode that I finally get called out, canceled...

Kristen  13:57  
We'll see.

Prakash  13:57  
Ridiculed. We'll see.

Kristen  13:59  
What's the line for you?

Prakash  14:02  
So I think that there is like, I mean, I think I have seen instances where like, people are painted black, for reasons that, in my opinion, I don't think it's blackface.

Kristen  14:12  
Why? 

Prakash  14:13  
Because it's not meant to characterize a Black individual. 

Kristen  14:18  
Okay.

Prakash  14:18  
So there's an episode of Community that was taken off of Netflix.

Kristen  14:23  
Is it the one where Chang is black with white hair? 

Prakash  14:26  
Yeah. Because that is, if you've never seen the show community. I can't say that I recommend it necessarily. I'm not sure how well its aged and maybe because I had not seen this episode because it's not on Netflix anymore, that... 

Kristen  14:39  
Maybe, I mean...

Prakash  14:40  
It might be more problematic than I remember.

Kristen  14:42  
The first three seasons. Everything after that, I'm like, I don't know but those first three seasons.

Prakash  14:49  
So this episode of the show Community, it's about a group of friends who all attend a community college. And there's an episode in which they are playing a game of Dungeons and Dragons. And one of the characters of the show is extremely into it.

Kristen  15:03  
So into it. 

Prakash  15:03  
And is like dressed up as a Dungeons and Dragons character. I'm not really sure how the game works I've never played. But I've heard that he is like, yeah, like a dark elf or something. And this is like a character that exists within the world of Dungeons and Dragons, or within the world of like, common fantasy characters. And unlike the minstrel depictions of people in blackface, who are like meant to look like, you know, not not that they're meant to look like black people, but that is what they're representing. In this, because he is like, just some kind of like, non-human creature. As far as I know, I don't think elves are tied to, like, I don't know, to Black people or anything. I think when I watched that, I think it was obviously meant to be shocking that he is, you know, an Asian man painted in black. I think that's what the gag is supposed to be because everyone else is, you know, normally like, college dressed, you know, like there to learn. And then there's one person's like, emerges from a table completely black.

Kristen  16:09  
With like a blue shirt on and a white wig. And so it's just even more visually shocking. Yeah.

Prakash  16:16  
And for me that was the gag. And not because that character is extremely problematic in other ways. 

Kristen  16:21  
So problematic. I'm gonna throw a question at you. Because you did start this by saying you don't know about Dungeons and Dragons. So you don't know if elves in Dungeons and Dragons are made to represent black people. So there's the possibility that it's okay for you because you don't have the context behind this elf character.

Prakash  16:45  
That's true. I'm assuming because yeah, I don't really know a lot about Dungeons and Dragons except that its like a game that you play like, kind of in your mind. 

Unknown Speaker  16:52  
Neither do I. Yeah. 

Prakash  16:54  
But I think that but I think elves often are like an allegory for whiteness, or for women. In the case of, I was gonna say Game of Thrones, the other one.

Kristen  17:04  
Lord of the Rings. 

Prakash  17:05  
Lord of the Rings. 

Kristen  17:06  
But see elves in lord of the rings were pure and honest and spiritual and very much white. They were made to represent the amazingness of white people. 

Prakash  17:17  
Everybody in Lord of the Rings was white. 

Kristen  17:19  
Yes, but see again, because in Lord of the Rings, they had the elves who were like purity and whiteness, but they also had dwarves who were cave dwellers. Cave dwellers and savage and the elves hated them. Like the whole gag in Lord of the Rings is like Gimli. And oh my god, Legolas are not supposed to be friends. They hate each other on site, because elves versus dwarves. Yeah.

Prakash  17:48  
Yeah. Do we already have an episode about the racial allegories in fantasy?

Kristen  17:53  
We don't, but we could. Because I also have another example to throw at you, which is the blackface Star Trek example that I stopped myself in bringing up earlier. There is a race in Star Trek, we're gonna go back to next generation because the Klingons come up again, but like the first instance of the Klingons. They are clearly made to represent savage backwards Black people. 100%. There is no... That's who they're supposed to represent. They are savage. They like war. They like fighting. They are very aggressive as a race. White people dress up as Klingons all the time. Where do you where do you fall now? Is that okay?

Prakash  18:43  
I'm just gonna look up a picture real quick of what a Klingon is.

Kristen  18:46  
Sure. You can look up Woorf. W-O-O-R-F. He is the first thing on that we see in Next Gen. And there are other Klingons like in Discovery spoiler for anyone who likes Star Trek and hasn't watched Discovery yet. Like it's shocking that there is a white Klingon. Like Vog is a big deal because he's white, but still a Klingon. All the other Klingons are generally dark.

Prakash  19:15  
This severe hairline. Its taking me out. Interesting.

Kristen  19:26  
They are savage. They are aggressive. They like war. They are always fighting. It's crazy for the Klingons like Woorf has betrayed the Klingons. He's betrayed his people by joining Starfleet. He was raised by humans, and it's another like strike against him. That not only is he not following his aggressive origins, he was also not raised by his people. And now works for their opposing space entity. I don't know what to call Starfleet versus Klingon Empire.

Prakash  20:07  
I mean, from the way that you've described the Klingons if I hadn't seen the photo sounds like white people to me. Loves violence. Loves wars. Aggressive. Out here doing too much.

Kristen  20:19  
Well see...

Prakash  20:19  
Maybe they just identify... 

Kristen  20:21  
That's the other thing. That's the like Starfleet is supposed to be like, the golden entity in the universe. All they want to do is spread good, but they're like colonizers. Like, literally the mission of the Enterprise is to colonize space. 

Prakash  20:37  
Hmm. 

Kristen  20:37  
So I'm like, which one's the white person in all of them?

Prakash  20:42  
I'm sure I've said this many times, but white supremacy is so pervasive in every fabric of our lives, our media, entertainment, storytelling, even like, yeah, sci fi. When you could think of literally anything, any kind of world. We continue to re... I was going to say represent, like recreate.

Kristen  21:08  
The exact same structures that we hate that we're living under?

Both  21:11  
Yeah. 

Prakash  21:12  
The political realities of our times. Yeah. 

Kristen  21:14  
Exactly. I want to take it back to the idea of digital blackface. Back to your Chang example. I took us on a detour there. Do you have other examples of blackface that is quote unquote, okay for you?

Prakash  21:27  
Don't phrase it like that?

Kristen  21:30  
How is... That is... I'll take my quotes away. Because like we did come to an understanding that maybe context of the world of D&D might change how you see that. Because you said like, without context, the way that I describe the Klingons, you would have assumed that they were white, and then you saw a picture and now you're like, oh, yeah, blackface. Okay, I get it. So potentially, there's some context there that we don't have, that might change how you see the representation of Chang. Because I also thought it was hilarious. And I also like, remember how visually stark it was and how hilarious I found it that he was so into this game, when no one else was into this game to that level. 

Prakash  22:07  
Yeah. 

Kristen  22:09  
Yeah. So that's the part that stood out for us. But we don't have context of the world of D&D, which might change how you see it. So like, yeah, other examples that we can sort of pick through.

Prakash  22:20  
Okay, I will just say like, big, you know, disclaimer that like, I'm not the authority of what is and is not black face. 

Kristen  22:25  
Right. Yeah. 

Prakash  22:25  
Obviously. 

Kristen  22:26  
Neither of us are. 

Prakash  22:27  
I'm bringing this up more so to like yeah, just sort of like pose the question and then because then we can like apply this lens into like, the discussion online about like, what isn't it's not digital blackface? If people have seen RuPaul's Drag Race UK Versus The World. There was a drag queen called Jimbo, who had this outfit in which she was like, essentially a chess piece. The whole outfit is black and white. And then she was like, wearing this like, this, like white like face. Like, I don't know, like a face mask crown situation. It's like a white with a black detailing. And I guess to, like, push the look further, she or like, she herself was painted black. 

Kristen  23:11  
Right. 

Prakash  23:11  
And when I first saw it, I was like, again, I don't think that this is trying to be blackface, but this looks a little bit suspicious. And when she like, recreated the look, like for Instagram, she was white. So I was like...

Kristen  23:26  
So she thought it was suspicious as well. Or someone told her it was suspicious as well. Or she would have done it the exact same way.

Prakash  23:34  
Yeah, probably after the fact. So I bring all this up to say in the online spaces.

Kristen  23:38  
Even before you get there. I think it's kind of killing me a little bit that like, we have to question whether things are blackface or not. Like, we live in such a way that means that we don't, we can't be sure when people are or are not being racist. Like that's messed up. Like we can't just like take it at face value that these things are artistic because so many like deep roots are racist. That's messed up. Anyway, my brain is just like, this is garbage. But continue.

Prakash  24:14  
Did you know that there's actually like a particular kind of black paint that's like, essentially owned by one person?

Kristen  24:23  
I did not know that.

Prakash  24:24  
Yeah, I think he like patented, he's not... I can't remember his name now. But he is, I think he's the artist who made like the bean in Chicago. 

Kristen  24:33  
Okay. 

Prakash  24:34  
But he is the world's most hated artist because he developed this like the blackest of black pigments, paint and basically like...

Kristen  24:42  
And patented it?

Prakash  24:43  
Patented it so no one no one could like, recreate it or use it, I guess without paying him or with his permission. 

Kristen  24:50  
Capitalism. 

Prakash  24:50  
Capitalism. So not at all blackface but like black bunting? I don't know. I don't know why I brought this up. But just to say, but yeah, I agree. It's like, it is true that we're in this time, when it's like, it's almost like the appearance of not doing blackface is more important than actually not doing blackface. Or like not being racist. Yeah. 

Kristen  25:15  
Cause then I'm also like, somebody shows up in blackface, and we get all up in arms, and then that person publicly apologizes. But do they actually learn what it was that was racist for them to do? Or do they just feel bad because people got mad at them? You know, like, where's the teachable there? Like, we all got mad at Justin Trudeau. He apologized, kind of but also didn't say he never did it any other times, but like, if he actually understood what he did wrong, wouldn't he own up to the things? Do we have any guarantee that he won't do it again, but just do it privately and better privately because he was exposed? You know?

Prakash  25:56  
Yeah. I think that's a good point. And maybe like this will sort of help us discuss like, what is and isn't, like, yeah, well, I think this will help us discuss the nuance around digital blackface.

Kristen  26:09  
Oh, yeah, that was the topic. 

Prakash  26:12  
I think we'll split this into two episodes. This will be a black face part one, and then the other one will be digital blackface. 

Kristen  26:17  
Okay. 

Prakash  26:17  
Because even in 2022 blackface still requires so much unpacking and discussion. But I think, I think if we ask ourself the question like really, what is the impact of blackface? Like, how do we know when something is artistic expression? And what is offensive? You know, like, or why? Or why something even if it's meant to be artistic question, like, why it could be offensive? 

Prakash  26:38  
And so let's say, you know, obviously, I'm, I'm Indian, so we can look at the example of Trudeau in brownface in which he, yeah, you know, again, you can Google these photos if you, if you so choose. And, you know, it's like harmful, hurtful for like me to look at to be like, okay, this is someone who wields a lot of power. Like in Canada, obviously, he's the Prime Minister. But even before when he did this before he was Prime Minister. This is still someone who is extremely influential. A teacher. I think at the time, he may or may not have been a sitting MP. Still the son of a former Prime Minister. Someone who like comes from like, Canada's like, elite. Someone who has had, like, all of the privileges of such an upbringing. Someone who should be like, you know, among like, the most like educated or knowledgeable about, you know, like, Canada's entire situation, about like, the diversity of the population. I'm sure we talked about this before, but there's a lot of like, anti-Brown, anti-South Asian, anti-immigration sentiment within Canada already. And so like, not only are we out here, like, not only South Asians, but like people of colour, in general, like Black folk, we're just like out here, trying to live because colonization made it such that we could not live comfortably in our countries of origin. And now here's this person who was like the, like avatar, for like, the majority population of this nation. Like looking at people like me, people like my family, like my dad, as a fucking joke. As a costume. As something to make fun of, to laugh at. A costume. Something that is funny, like not serious, like not a population that has like, real problems, real things at stake. And instead as something that like, you know, if let's say if you like love Apu from the Simpsons, you think he's like really funny. You could just wear that outfit. If you love Aladdin, sure, you can like wear that outfit. But it's like, you're really like the the painting yourself in like, like, I don't know, like Muskoka chair brown. Like, it's just, it's so ridiculous. Yeah, it's just very indicative of like, how, like, white Canadians at large see people like me, which is like shit. That it's like, yeah.

Kristen  29:13  
I think I'm not sure I'll be able to articulate this well, but there's, there's a piece for me as well, that it's just like, not everything is for everybody. And so like if you feel the need to paint yourself, maybe that thing is not for you. I don't know. Like I don't know. They are just some characters that I'm like, I wouldn't try to represent them myself. Because that character is not for me. Like there's an understanding that I can admire without having to replicate because I could never accurately replicate. And I think that part of the annoyance and the hatred of blackface for me or redface or yellowface, is this lack of understanding that not everything is for you. Like, not everything is for you. I don't know. You can admire something without needing to replicate it or be it. Because you're not. Not every representation is for you. Not everything is for you. You can see the thing and admire the thing and leave it alone. 

Prakash  30:17  
Yeah. I think this is the perfect spot to end. And we will continue this conversation, put it in the digital context in our next episode. So, if you want to hear that, stay in the know. We'll see you in two weeks. 

Kristen  30:31  
Bye.

Kristen  30:42  
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai