...Why DEI is a Scam?

Transcript available here.

We're back again on our frustrated rants talking about DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) and how often various efforts under this umbrella mean well, but do nothing if not actively put more work on vulnerable workers.

Reference Tweet (@MKGuliford)
Land Acknowledgement | Baroness von Sketch  Show
Canadian Human Rights Tribunal

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

Find us: @dothekidsknow (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok)
Email us: dothekidsknow@gmail.com
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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Prakash  0:15  
Hey y'all, and welcome back to Do the Kids Know? This is the show where we talk about race media, pop culture, and politics in triple K, Canada. My name is Prakash. I am one of your hosts. And with me on Zoom is Kristen. 

Kristen  0:31  
Sup? 

Prakash  0:33  
And we're back in our bullshit this week to talk about something that we've read on Twitter. 

Kristen  0:39  
That you read on Twitter.

Prakash  0:40  
And to have a conversation about it. Maybe this will, maybe this will be how this goes because I'm, I'm very on Twitter like I, I scroll a lot. I tweet...

Kristen  0:50  
Okay.

Prakash  0:50  
...very little. Because I really feel that Twitter is not, for me a place for discourse, because like trying to articulate a nuanced point within like, the 280 characters, and engaging with trolls or people, either it's either trolls or people who are in your echo chamber. Like it, I don't think it's particularly fruitful, especially because I have such a small like following of like, people who are in my field, people who I know. So I don't think it really makes sense. But I think it does make sense to talk about it here with more time and nuance. And plus, I'm not really interested in hearing. Yeah, the trolls have a harder time getting to us via an audio medium. And good luck to them is what I say but before this...

Kristen  1:40  
Okay.

Prakash  1:41  
...you know, we'll warm up by talking about how co-star told us what to do and how we didn't like it.

Kristen  1:51  
That really is the segment. Co-star says things and we go this is rude.

Prakash  1:57  
What is wrong this week or today? 

Kristen  2:01  
Well, yesterday.

Prakash  2:03  
Okay.

Kristen  2:04  
 So yesterday, co-star said to me, it is okay to admit that you don't have the answers.

Prakash  2:13  
Okay, but girl, did you hear that?

Kristen  2:15  
Shut up. Shut up. That's why its rude. Cause I'm like, I am, a like double Earth with a fire moon. How dare you tell me that it's okay to not have the answers. I have all of the answers. And I will tell you them whether you want to hear it or not.

Prakash  2:32  
I'm also very like that. I'm like I have all the answers. I don't, I don't claim to believe that. I don't claim that they're all correct answers. But they're real.

Kristen  2:38  
No, but they are answers. 

Prakash  2:39  
So take it or leave. 

Kristen  2:41  
You're gonna hear them. I don't know. I don't know. 

Prakash  2:43  
I don't know what you expect from me, what you want for me, because bitch I gave so.

Kristen  2:49  
Yeah. So I'm going to disregard co-star.

Prakash  2:55  
You will get this advice. And you will get moving, please. How dare, the audacity.

Kristen  3:01  
The audacity.

Prakash  3:03  
Yeah, mine yesterday also told me, your body is resisting it's entrapment. That can mean a lot of things. And my therapist every week. She's really she's really kind. But she's always like, and how does that feel in your body? 

Kristen  3:23  
Nope. 

Prakash  3:23  
And, I'm like, I think every time she says this she sees my like blank stare. And then last week, she like was like realy trying to teach. She was like, Okay, when I say this to you, like what are you thinking? And I'm like, grimaceing. I'm like, well, as someone who is always in pain, and someone who is very Brown. Very queer. I do my best to not think about my body.

Kristen  3:47  
Thank you. 

Prakash  3:47  
At any given time. And so you told me to like, think about what's going on is a lot, but I was like, 'kay I guess, I guess the goal is to separate the body from the physiology like what am I feeling versus like, what am I? 

Kristen  4:01  
How's that going?

Prakash  4:04  
Does that make sense?

Kristen  4:08  
It does, how's that going?

Prakash  4:09  
Oh, not good. It's hard but you know, whenever I'm seeing here today, so we'll we'll talk about it. 

Kristen  4:18  
Good luck.

Prakash  4:18  
Anyway. So we'll move on to our main topic, which is, as I said, comes from Twitter. And I will just read I mean, you will, you'll know what this is about based on the title of whatever this episode is called but this tweet is written by Meg K Guilford and I will link this tweet in the show notes. This person writes, "I'm just gonna step out on this ledge and argue that DEI slash diversity statements are nothing more than mechanisms for hiring slash selecting committees, to get candidates to self disclose information about what you can and cannot be legally asked or required to disclose". 

Prakash  4:52  
The first comment if you open this thread says, by Nate Holdren, "I heard someone say something like university DEI initiatives strongly sit at the overlap of HR and PR. And since then I can't unsee it". And if you're not familiar, HR is human resources and PR is public relations. And I just want to read one more. One more quote from Angela Davis. And then we'll discuss and I have counterpoint, I will introduce once we discuss our point on this. So this person also in this thread, they shared this image of a quote from Angela Davis, "I have a hard time accepting diversity as a synonym for justice. Diversity is a corporate strategy. It's a strategy designed to ensure that the institution functions in the same way that they functioned before except now that you have some Black faces and Brown faces. Its a difference that doesn't make a difference." 

Prakash  5:39  
All right, so I've read some contentious points, some heated material, and let's discuss, Kristen, we have many times discussed diversity,

Kristen  5:52  
Yeah, DEI is a scam. 

Prakash  5:54  
I think that's one of our quotes and season two. And... 

Kristen  5:56  
Yeah.

Prakash  5:57  
We are both currently engaged in some of that side diversity work. And so...

Kristen  6:02  
Well see that's why I'm like, okay. Because DEI is a scam. And so, on the one hand, I do agree, diversity is not a synonym for justice. Diversity does hope to replace some white faces with Black and Brown faces.

Prakash  6:17  
Actually, one quick interjection. But for those who do not remember, DEI stands for diversity...

Kristen  6:24  
Oh shit. 

Prakash  6:24  
...equity, inclusion. And I think we've done an episode on this before explaining it, but maybe not. But you can like google it very quickly.

Kristen  6:31  
I don't think we've done a full episode. I think we've talked about it.

Prakash  6:34  
But basically, it's like these like sets of like, corporate initiatives that aim to like, quote, unquote, diversify the workforce, like make things make the workspace, like, you know, very coming off our discussion of professionalism, but like making the workplace more conducive to supporting and having more like racially diverse employees is typically what is the unspoken like diversity within DEI. Okay, sorry. And then please, continue.

Kristen  7:03  
Yeah. So as we've said, I do agree it's a scam. But the reasons why I think it's a scam are the reasons why I also am like, there's a counterpoint to these points. Because D, yes, DEI is not synonymous with justice. No, it can't be, that's agree 100. It does aim to replace white faces with non-white faces. Yes. The reason that I think DEI is a scam, though, is because of the point that was made that like it it, it replaces HR replaces PR, it doesn't actually hope to do things and make actionable change. And that is why it's a scam. I think the premise of DEI, which is teaching people how to think outside their own perspective, how to see other people's experiences, and how to factor those things that they don't experience themselves, into their policies, into their practices, into the work that they do is important. And I think if DEI actually did that, it wouldn't be a scam. But it doesn't, and so it is.

Prakash  8:14  
Like DEI's ambitions, as like a concept that thing gets very, like noble. But in institutions...

Kristen  8:21  
But in actuality? Hit and a miss, generally, every time. There was something that was said in one of the tweets or the statements that I'm like, that's also not accurate for me, because it's about more than just race. DEI is also about accessibility. And so making things more accessible for people who still look like the other people but have access needs or have disability needs, is also supposed to be a component of DEI. And it generally is not. People forget that as well.

Prakash  8:56  
I think what we like we often like talk about, yeah, DEI as like, you know, as a unified concept. What I think is most people are stuck at the D, even even the D is very limited. But I want to return to a few points you mentioned, I think first, I'm not sure if even I can point to examples of DEI initiatives that replaced white people with people of colour.

Kristen  9:24  
You can't. 

Prakash  9:24  
I know. 

Kristen  9:25  
It's sorry, I can't. I don't know.

Prakash  9:27  
It comes in like you and I as people who are external giving advice and now that they have a Brown face to show in, you know, in whatever in whatever project or lead because I do things like me personally, a lot of things I do are very public. And so because my face shows up or my name or whatever like it like does diversity work on their behalf. Or it's like people are often brought in at like in a hierarchical structure, often very like low tier positions like the people who are at the top that actually have power are not the ones who are being replaced, like maybe at the board level. I have seen a lot of boards in last few years like changeover. But again, like they're often left in such disarray, that the people who will come in have very little to go with what's been leftover. And so, yeah, I would love to get some good example of DEI, if you have them, please send them to me, I would love, I would love to see, you know, and support. But from my knowledge, it's not been great out here.

Kristen  10:31  
The reason that DEI exists is to change policies and practices. But the way that DEI is executed, is to show not actually do. And so it's very easy to replace a white person with a Black person, but not change the structures that exist that made it so that there were only white people in the first place. And unless or until your DEI practices change the structures that made it so that there were only white people in the first place, replacing people is not going to do anything. It will not create long standing change. That Black person is going to come into a place that is still not welcoming for them, and still doesn't have the things that it needs to have in order to take their experiences into account. So what is the difference? There is no difference. 

Kristen  11:22  
Or we are replicating the same structures that DEI is supposed to not replicate. In that white people use Black and Brown people exclusively for their labour and for nothing else, which is what you get when you bring in people in the hierarchy at the lower, like the lower tiers of the hierarchy. You replace those white people with Black and Brown people, which is great. And then you don't replace anybody else. You are simply recreating the same structures that existed in the first place, and therefore DEI is not actually what you're doing. I think that it I think that's why I'm calling it a scam. Because people say they're doing DEI but they're not actually because the the concept of the thought is about changing the inherent structure. And no one does that.

Prakash  12:12  
Yeah, actually, I remember now that we definitely did talk about this in our episode in Season Two on the Asian Glass Ceiling. 

Kristen  12:22  
Oh!

Prakash  12:22  
So I recommend people...

Kristen  12:24  
Okay. 

Prakash  12:23  
...refer the episode for a more kind of like, thorough discussion on like, exactly why we keep saying DEI is a scam, I think. But I think why what I want to do, what I do want to return to from this tweet is the diversity statement. And so for those who are maybe not working the same areas as we are often we see diversity statements at the level of the nonprofit or institution, a cultural institution or university might not be is like large statement saying that like we here at Do the Kids Know? believe in equal opportunities for all people regardless of their... You can't see it on the screen, obviously, because it's an audio medium, but Kristen is like holding her mouth is like on the ground. No, hardly in the frame. Shaking. Should I write...? Okay, I will I will I will now perform Do the Kids Know? unofficial official because I guess its me and I represent Do the Kids Know? our diversity statement.

Prakash  12:24  
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The the whole idea of statements that don't have practices to back it up, always sends me... I laugh. What is the...

Prakash  13:40  
No I... 

Kristen  13:41  
Continue. 

Prakash  13:41  
We can do it now and it will not it will not make sense. Okay. So like, as a for instance, you know, Do the Kids Know? LLC, we're not we're not an LLC. 

Kristen  13:51  
We're not. 

Prakash  13:52  
Believes and supports its employees who are people of colour, women, immigrants, disabled, queer, poor, whatever, and we stand with our employees, we support them. We are constantly engaging in the work of learning to do better to support ourselves and our communities. And Black Lives Matter.

Kristen  14:22  
Thank you so much for this statement, it means so much.

Prakash  14:25  
It means so much but it means nothing because we are the two employees. 

Kristen  14:29  
It means absolutely nothing. 

Prakash  14:30  
And like there's not...

Kristen  14:31  
But even if we were more employees, it means nothing. Like I want to see diversity statements that say we're going to do X Y, Z. These are our actionables. These are our goals. This is when we're going to check in to make sure that we've done the thing and this is when you as the public or you as the whoever who we're making the statement to kind of interrogate whether we have succeeded at the things that we've said we're going to do. Like telling me that you stand with and you believe in does nothing telling me that you stand with and you see where you fail at this thing that you've now acknowledged and you see where you're going to grow and do more of this thing that you've acknowledged. And this is like the deadline for when you're going to do this thing. Like, those are the statements, that means something to me because it means that you've, you've acknowledged the problem. You have a solution for the problem. And you've said, I will fix this problem by x time.

Prakash  15:21  
See, even for me, I'm not, that doesn't do for me. What I want us to do,

Kristen  15:25  
Well, it's not enough. No, but it's better than just I believe with and I stand with, because that does nothing that literally does nothing. 

Prakash  15:31  
Yeah, no, like, I think for me when I want to see like, like DEI has been in the universe that we haven't talking about for like, at least, in like the popular in popular culture for like a number of years. Now. Of course, it has been here, it's been around for quite longer, like, we can think of affirmative action as a kind of like, legal route through which like DEI was kind of operating. Like a failure, we can talk about it in another episode. But these ideas have been circulating. So there has like been time for people to have like, done something by now. Anything. And so if you're gonna have a statement, I want to see what you did. Like...

Kristen  16:09  
But they can't show you that. That's what I'm saying. 

Prakash  16:12  
Because again, nothing has been done.

Kristen  16:14  
Nothing has been done. So they cannot say I've done this thing yet. They haven't. 

Prakash  16:18  
Yeah. 

Kristen  16:19  
All they can say is I stand with this thing, because they're like, oh, people actually care about this now. I guess we also care about it. But telling me you care about a thing is not enough.

Prakash  16:30  
Yeah, I feel similarly about like, things like land acknowledgments, which I'm like, it's great that you recognize that we are here on unceded Indigenous lands, and that you respect the connections, you know, whatever. Like, insert Concordia's Indigenous Directions statement here that like everyone in Montreal uses, which I think is a beautiful statement. There's a video that explains why that statement is there, and they go line by line and explain it, I think it's a really beautiful statement that was written with a lot of like, meaning behind it by the people who wrote it. But there's a great Baroness von Sketch, sketch about this which I'll link, it's pretty funny. But like, if that's not backed up by any kind of action, that like, we are, these are the work that we're doing in collaboration with like Indigenous groups, or artists, or scholars or organizations or whatever. Or like, you know, this is how internally, we are supporting our Indigenous staff or community or whatever, like, what... 

Kristen  17:27  
It doens't mean anything. 

Prakash  17:28  
Back to the statement. So there are statements that put on behalf of the organization. But I think really what people are talking about in this thread is often when you hire like hire academics and certain kinds of other cultural workers, there now is this request. Actually, this happened to me, when I was applying for a teaching job in which they want like, a pedagogical statement, like how, how do you like base your philosophy of teaching, and also about your philosophy of like, considering diversity? And so a lot of the arguments in the twitter thread, is that, right? Especially, you know, the very person I read is that it's sort of like the request for the statement force you to disclose how you yourself relate to concepts of like needing or wanting, diversity, equity, and inclusion. 

Prakash  18:18  
So for instance, like I would say, for myself, like, I really understand that students need like a culturally specific and informed, like, pedagogical approach, and I know this firsthand, because I was a child of immigrants, who, like, did not have a mastery of English. I grew up working class, I'm like, queer, I'm Brown. Like, I have all these, I'm disabled, chronically in pain, like, I have all these systems working against me. And it's like, you know, all my life, I had to fight, Jackie Robinson, like, it's, it's very, it's very that. I mean, but like, the argument has been made in this tweet is that like, nobody can ever ask you like, you know, things like yeah, things like ageism, you know, there are lots of like, different ways we can think about yeah diversity not only in race, but like in experience in age in disability. And then like, and therefore, this will definitely inform what kind of like, you know, equitable actions would take place or what kind of like, measures for inclusion might need to be considered. But like, an employer could not really ask you like, yeah, how old are you are like, are you a parent, like these kinds of things that like you might self-disclose to sort of like prove how much you understand the need for DEI or how DEI could function like it's a way of like, getting you to out yourself. And there are many people in this thread that like, agreed and disagreed. But yeah, I'm curious, Kristen, about what you think about this, whether you've had to do it or like if you do do it and like other spaces, and yeah.

Kristen  19:54  
Yeah. We just recorded the episode on professionalism. And so I'm like, if you want to know my professional background go to that one. But I am in a position where I do not have to disclose anything about myself. I enter work situations to provide a skill that is missing, to provide an expertise that they do not have, and then I leave. And so anything that they know about me and my personal life, my illnesses is because I probably have to cancel a meeting or I have to move something around. And I will potentially, honestly, sometimes I don't disclose sometimes I don't give a reason I just say I can't do this, we need to move this meeting. But those are the only instances where I have to disclose. And then it's only because I'm like, how much sympathy do I want from this person on, like, it's 30 minutes out, and I need to cancel this thing. Maybe I should give them a reason? 

Kristen  20:56  
In terms of the statement, though, I, I don't know if I disagree or agree. I think that I'm going to I'm going to think out loud while I come to an answer. Because on the one hand, it's true that in those statements, you are telling more of yourself than you potentially would. And if they are keeping track, they can now keep track of all of these things about you that they wouldn't necessarily have access to right away before you even enter their workplace. So that is factually is true. You, through these statements are self disclosing things that they cannot ask you outright, but that they know now, because you are writing a statement about yourself and about your pedagogy. Yes. 

Kristen  21:48  
On the other hand, if the structures in place at that workplace, were actually what they should be, that wouldn't be a bad thing. Because they would be able to know right away, what accommodations they need to provide you in order for you to do the labour that they would like you to do. And so it's it's like a double edged, that's why I don't know if I agree or disagree, because like, on the one hand, the workplaces need to do better. In that they need to provide structures in places where if you disclose something, they actually have the systems and practices in place to accommodate that, to make changes, or to provide you with things in order to make you feel like you can be 100% yourself in their space. So like, yes, you're self-disclosing things that they wouldn't know. But also, it's like your self-disclosing without without a purpose. Because if you were self-disclosing for a workplace that actually was like, Okay, so you've said this, this this in your pedagogy statement. And so this, this, and this are the like people, you can go to the places, you can go to the things that we have to accommodate the things that you've said. Like, that's what that should look like, you know? And so I'm like, I don't know, because I can see the ideal. I can see the ideal.

Prakash  23:16  
Yeah, I think you make a lot of salient points. Okay, so currently, I do work for a small organization, a large organization, a university, and a medium sized one, that I think of like sort of seen how this plays out the across like, different kinds of institutions, and also like the resources at hand. And I think, let's say for so for a University, I think are actually for all these for, I think, for most places, there are really good intentions behind wanting to do these things. 

Kristen  23:49  
Yay. 

Prakash  23:50  
Well. Life, life is pain. So institutions want money. 

Kristen  23:59  
Yes. 

Prakash  24:00  
They want business. 

Kristen  24:01  
Yes. 

Prakash  24:01  
They want things, even nonprofits, you know, they have goals to like, you know, I'm speaking from my context, like, you know, they want to show contemporary art. It does not cost money to enter. But of course, they do things to get money, like, apply for grants, do exhibitions, like benefit exhibitions, other kinds of events, like paid bars, doing exhibition openings, these kinds of things that like generate income, so they can continue to exist. So they can they can continue to do the kinds of work they want to do, which are often like good intentioned. Like, yeah, you know, showing off people doing the artwork, great. I love it into it. That's why that that takes up two thirds of my professional working hours. 

Prakash  24:46  
Something like a university is in a profit of making money, the university is. The deans are, the president is, etc. The people who are specifically in charge of hiring, the money that the university makes is to like a hiring committee depending on who's on the committee, like less of an immediate concern, because in theory, as long as they hire somebody who is going to bring in students, that is how the department, the university,  will make money. And so I think there is sort of a more common understanding now, that if we can get, like diverse populations, who also have money, who will bring in resources into the institution, regardless of the size, regardless of you know, whether or not they are paying directly in terms of like a ticket to entry, or a tuition to be there, because grad students often, like well, you're not paying tuition, you're receiving funds to enter. But regardless, the university does make money by having students and so I think that they're like speaking to people who I know who have been in hiring committees, which often still seem very difficult to work within and being on hiring committees myself, like, obviously, not to hire like university professors, but like in other situations in their community, cultural sector, like there is an interest, you know, to want to find someone who is going to do their job well at supporting, like the communities who are not already being supported by the institution. 

Prakash  26:24  
So that has like looked like me doing programming that's BIPOC specific. It could be like a Canada Research Chair in Black Studies. It could be having like an all Black or BIPOC art exhibition. It could be mentorship programs specific to marginalized populations, and these kinds of things. And so I often think that there is like a kernel of like sincerity, in their press for these statements because someone somewhere, I think, thought that this was a good way to sort of weed out the people who are like, just there for maybe their own self interest. But obviously, all jobs are people there for their interests because need to get money to live. Because capitalism, right? When we when we, when we lose money I think a lot of us might not be doing might not be spending our time, the way that we are currently spending it. Speaking for myself, y'all would never see me again.

Kristen  27:22  
Nah, for real. If I had enough money to live, why would I... Yeah.

Prakash  27:27  
I definitely would not be working 45 hours...

Kristen  27:30  
Nope.

Prakash  27:31  
...in my regular work week plus all my, we've-, ugh,

Kristen  27:33  
Yeah, we've talked about it. Yeah. 

Prakash  27:35  
Yeah, I'm getting stressed out just thinking about it, but I think what this has, like devolved into. I think like a lot of like good intentions, good ideas, have sort of like morphed into this either, like checking a box, you know, like this is, this is now a standardized practice, from being something that was very intentional, to saying like, kay, how can... We need someone who can support these students who are not currently being supported. Now, how can we find that person? By asking them to like write a statement explains how, like, from their experience, so speaking for myself, like I have done projects in the past, where I have been like, okay, I had the experience of what it is to, you know, like, feel discriminated against or feel prejudice based on my race. And so what I can do in this space as like, I know what it is, like, for me, I know this exists, in like a different form for people who are otherwise racialised. So ndigenous people, Black people, in particular, like, you know, these populations that like we know, through, like qualitative evidence through, like, being already in community with these people, through reading their own stories, histories, memoirs, etc, that, like, they're undergoing something far more acute. And so while maybe I don't, I have not lived that experience myself, like, in this institution of all white people, like, I can use what I know, and I can use the resources at my disposal, through this organization, to set up really specific programming for these underrepresented groups, that maybe I use my skills in facilitating, but that I don't then, like, speak on their behalf or like, claim to know everything about their Black experience. Because again, there is no "the" experience, but I can, like use the resources I have to, like, get other Black artists to work with these, you know, students. I can, like, use money to like hire Indigenous consultants to figure things out, you know, it's like, and I know where to look for these things. Because I've been in my position and so this could be condensed into a DEI statement to be like, I know where to go. I know where I'm at. I know. I'm aware like very, very much in tune with last week's conversation. I'm at the point of the like, the scale of expert knowledge with how much you think you know, where it's like, I know what I don't know. But I know where to go to get that knowledge. And I think that this is sort of like where the impetus for these statements are. But I think it hasn't quite devolved since then. 

Kristen  30:02  
The thing that my brain keeps coming back to is that the things that you've described are DEI practice, but still on a very individual level. So like you are making change. There's no guarantee that the other 15 people in your department are approaching it the same way. There's no guarantee that the other 15 departments have a person who is embodying DEI in this way. So yes, you do these things. But no, these things won't make change. Because once you leave, who's going to do it. And so, for me, disclosing all these things, doesn't do any, like, I'm still I'm back to my point earlier, like disclosing all these things doesn't do anything, if there isn't the structure in place to match them. Like telling me that you're working class, before you even work for me, when I don't have anything in my arsenal, as your employer, to speak to the fact that you have a working class background is useless. It's useless. And so it still, yeah, the puzzle pieces still don't fit together. And so like you have one puzzle piece that's like, I personally am making these changes. But until everybody in the institution has that same commitment, the statements are still useless, disclosing all of the facets of your identity are still useless.

Prakash  31:47  
And I think as like a thought exercise, cause this is something that I was discussing at one of my workplaces was that when people apply to do work with us that we ask the applicants to provide, like a statement of social positioning, not like a DEI statement, necessarily, because we're not asking them to do any kind of do work, but just like state, state that you know where you are. So like, that could be like, I'm not trying to, like give away too many details of like, which, which workplace I'm talking about, because also these things are like still, you know, have not they're not policies yet. These are just ideas that we're having but. 

Prakash  32:25  
So say, I'm applying to show at a gallery, and this way I'm not outing any of my jobs, because they all have them. Like I could write, so I come from a, like a non-art background, or I haven't MFA, I was mentored, or I like learned from my grandparents. My art practice is like, based in whatever theory or this comes from, like community craftsmanship, or like, I'm self taught, or, you know, I am like racialized. Like these things, just to like, not necessarily... Like the point is not that we're like looking for anything in particular, but just for people to like, start thinking more critically, because as an institution, we're trying to think more critically about like, how much space we provide to people who are like not aligning with our mandate of being more like, self-reflexive and aware of the kinds of spaces we take up of, you know, the privileges that we haven't don't have. If someone is like, I am only ever being oppressed. That's also likely not true. And I think that's worth interrogating. Because I know I mean, I think all my group chats know about my hatred for certain kinds of individuals. Not my hatred. But my very, very deep frustration with the phenomenon known as tender queers. 

Kristen  33:53  
I... what?

Prakash  33:55  
I'll save it for another episode, because it's a whole topic but...

Kristen  33:58  
Okay. 

Prakash  33:59  
...Anyway, I'm not sure what, I'm not sure what the point of this was. But I do want to return to one more thing that you had said before. Oh, yeah. Cuz, before you had mentioned that, like, it would be really useful if, you know, we wrote this statements of like DEI, or positionality, that sort of, like disclose some of these things that would otherwise not be like legally, like yeah, like, you know, permissible for an employer to ask, let like, things like disability or like access needs. But I think I disagree because like, Well, I'm not that I disagree, I think yeah, ideally, that'd be great. If I'm like,

Kristen  34:31  
Because if I, if I could say, Okay, I'm applying to this job and I have x disability and then they can say to me, okay, cool. This is our disability benefit that you qualify for because you disclose this thing. Like, in that instance, it would be beneficial because I know what supports are in place to assist with the thing I disclosed. But that doesn't happen.

Prakash  34:55  
Yeah, and because accessibility is one of that was one of the areas which I work like, I think, I think the movement that I'm seeing some organizations do is to always provide somewhere like, somewhere visible, what kinds of access affordances are already available. So like, if the building is wheelchair accessible. If the bathrooms are. If they're gender neutral. If I don't know, there's like work from home options, like these kinds of things that are either on websites already, or are in job descriptions. Because I think that there already are laws in place in Canada, that as an employer, you cannot discriminate against people with disabilities against against disabled people or against disabilities, period. But of course...

Kristen  35:45  
Who's enforcing that? 

Prakash  35:45  
... as humans, like we all have our own Yep. One. Like, you will, you yourself would have to go to the Human Rights Commission, right? Tribunal. whatever they're called. I will find, I mean, I will, whatever, I will put it up the link in the show notes just in case you are in this position, in which you need to, like file a human rights complaint. But, again, that puts the onus on you as individual to like, not only are you like, in this job, hunt, you know, trying to survive, pandemic, you know, whatever. But now you have to go pursue and have the burden of proof to be like, this person discriminated against me because of my disability. 

Prakash  35:45  
And, like, everyone has, like, again, we talked about hiring committees, like these people are people and are flawed and have their own internal prejudices and biases. And, you know, might think that they're doing you a favor by being like, Oh, this is another job for you, because of the disability or the condition or whatever that you have described, like that. Oh, I already know that like, this is not going to be a good fit for you. It's like, Bitch, let me decide, give me the job, let me have some money, let me figure it out. Maybe I can work to make this place better, not only for me. But for people who are coming after me, the people who are already here that are hiding themselves, because they know that this ablest institution would not support them. And so while I think it would be great in theory, if like, we as a culture were just so much more open to access and to disability and that these things should not and would not, yeah, they that the things stick should not be taboo. Like I think it would make sense, but it definitely still is like discrimination is still rampant, of course, that's why we have this podcast to talk about how these things are still very underlying, even though they are outlawed by the law. But as we've seen, in these last few weeks, months, or however long, the fucking klu klux klan has been out here in the street that like, it does not matter if laws are in place, because like they are not enforced, or they're very specifically enforced. And yeah, I I still sort of see some merits of the statement like a pedagogical statement, maybe but also, now that they're so standardized. It's like, what are you expecting people to write that has not already been said? When there are Google templates for what these can look like? Like there are no, I think that they're no longer serving what they should serve.

Kristen  38:04  
I don't think they served what they should have served in the beginning, because I don't think any of these institutions actually have the structures, practices policies in place to support any of the things that people are disclosing.

Prakash  38:15  
This is my last point that the fact that this is emerging as a practice now, for new employees, again, means that those who have already done been here, the people who are in power, the people who are doing the hiring, likely have not had to deal with this before. 

Kristen  38:30  
Nope.

Prakash  38:31  
And so all of the onus for all of these endeavors, these new initiatives will be on these new employees who are, you know, like, should they should they even be hired? Because in the end, it might still be the white person who doesn't experience the same kinds of barriers...

Kristen  38:45  
Exactly.

Prakash  38:46  
Who are like, I read Robyn D'Angelo's White Fragility so I know, my place as a white person to support, you know, whatever, like that. The onus, the burden will be on these you know, poor, like literally poor, but like, you know, the unfortunate new hires, who will have the burden of doing all this work, plus, all the other ones have already expected. And we already know, too, we talked about this, that often, the burden of this kind of DEI work falls on racialized employees, even though like they did not necessarily ask for this, this is not their area of expertise. You know, like you and I, Kristen, we do it. We're not trained in this, but we, you know, like, we're trained by, you know, by working in and through these institutions to make it better for people like us. And now we do it more professionally, but like, that does not mean that like every Brown person you see knows about these things or cares to do it even you know? Like, people have their ambitions you know, like maybe you just want to be archiving, you know, and not deal with this other bullshit. Maybe I just want to be hot. You know, like, I don't want to be smart anymore. I don't want to think about things. I don't want to be critical. I want to just be bimbo and live, you know? 

Kristen  39:53  
Yeah. 

Prakash  39:54  
And that's it.

Kristen  39:57  
Well, on that note.

Prakash  40:01  
See you in two weeks and maybe in my DMs. 

Kristen  40:04  
Yeah. 

Prakash  40:04  
I'm very lonely.

Kristen  40:05  
How are you lonely? You were just telling me you went on like eight social, different eight different social things in like the last two weeks, like how?

Prakash  40:15  
I know but maybe this'll change by the time this episode comes out. Who knows? 

Kristen  40:19  
We'll see. I guess.

Prakash  40:21  
Anyway. If you have sugar. I'm a perpetual sugar baby. So let me know. Okay bye. Stay in the know.

Both  40:27  
Bye.

Kristen  40:29  
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Prakash  41:28  
Hey y'all and welcome back to Do the Kids Know? That is this show where we talk about... What do we talk about? How does, how does it start?

Kristen  41:40  
Oh my God race, media? Pop culture? politics? There we go. 

Prakash  41:45  
One more time.