...That You Can't Spell "Professionalism" Without "Racism"?

Transcript available here.

Inspired by this tweet from @timothyfbryson, Kristen and Prakash talk this week about the white supremacy and racial coding lurking behind discourses around "professionalism" and how they've navigated it. 

Reference Article: The Bias of 'Professionalism' Standards
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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
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DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Kristen  0:15  
Hey kids, and welcome to Do the Kids Know? That is this show where we talk about race, media, pop culture, and politics in triple K Canada. I am one of your hosts Kristen. On my screen is Prakash. 

Prakash  0:31  
Hello. 

Kristen  0:32  
Hello. And today we are following the same theme that we've been following for season three. We have not prepped in advance. We have found a thing online that we're like, we want to talk about this, and we're gonna talk about it. So our topic today is professionalism. But before we do that, Prakash, how did co-star read you this week?

Prakash  0:57  
Yeah, so the other day it told me just two, two simple words. 

Kristen  1:00  
Oh, no. 

Prakash  1:02  
Which were, are you ready? Say no.

Kristen  1:09  
Its not wrong.

Prakash  1:12  
If, uh, this is not the first time on this here podcast, you would know that often we throw around the phrase, team do less. But in fact, speaking for myself, but also for Kristen, doing less has, it's been a moving target. It's an aspirational goal. It's a mantra that we're trying to you know, like breathe into existence. Like very, like Oprah speaking into the universe, the secret like manifesting doing less. And of course, saying no is a big component, or like a big step toward doing less. But I think like last week. I did say no to two things in one day. So.

Kristen  2:00  
Shout out to you.

Prakash  2:02  
Thank you. Thank you. Because there were literally, it was literally impossible for me to do them.

Kristen  2:08  
See? The fact that you had to like add a caveat. You don't have to caveat you said no and no is a full sentence. You don't have to say no, because just no. No is a full sentence.

Prakash  2:17  
Ah, yeah. I said no. Mariah Carey, ah no, no. If I... I'm not sure how copyright works. Maybe I'll like put it in a small clip here. Note to self. If I don't, meh. 

Kristen  2:30  
I mean, okay. 

Prakash  2:33  
What about you how did co-star read you?

Kristen  2:36  
I got a lot of reads this week from costar, actually. But the one that I'm going to mention on Friday, co-star told me to try to say what you really mean.

Prakash  2:51  
And what do you really mean, Kristen?

Kristen  2:53  
I don't know. I think I do that. And my face does as well. So...

Prakash  3:03  
Yeah, I'm not sure if I talked to you about it. But the idea of having an indoor face.

Kristen  3:12  
I don't have an indoor face. My face is my face and I can't control her sometimes. All the time. Honestly.

Prakash  3:20  
Yeah. Yeah. The face is often telling the story of an inside that most of us I think try to keep on the inside. But I don't think you have a choice.

Kristen  3:32  
No, honestly, sometimes people are like, they'll tell me my face is doing a thing. I'm like, oh is it? Okay. Like when I'm in zoom meetings and I get DMs to turn off my video because my face is very expressive. I'm like oop. They're saying stupid things. My face lets them know. I don't know.

Prakash  3:52  
This is why you just like lean really far back from the screen. You know? Hopefully that helps obscure some of the minute details of the eyes and the the frowns and the furrowed brows you know?

Kristen  4:08  
Yeah, I don't know. My face and my mind they are very connected in a way that my mind doesn't let me know that's happening but it's happening. Oh well. So I have to try to say what I really mean I guess instead of letting my face say it?

Prakash  4:26  
So you're saying what you mean. I'm saying no. We have a theme. 

Kristen  4:29  
We do. We do. Apparently the theme is talk more. 

Prakash  4:33  
I don't think I don't think I need that. To be honest. This isn't a sad story but I was at brunch yesterday with two friends. Shout out to Chelsea and Nat, if you're listening. And I'm not sure how we got to the topic but this, uh, there's a particular kind of like chart graph situation that my friend Nikki who's a psychology PhD was explaining, which is that and I'm sure many people have seen this before, but sort of like, it's a scale of how much you know, versus how much you think, you know. And people who don't know very much, like, think they know a lot. And then it sort of also like, then it like dips and then it goes back up, like when you know, like a medium amount. You also think, you know, a medium amount. But then, like, the more you become an expert in a particular topic, the less you think you know, about that topic. 

Kristen  5:36  
I mean... 

Prakash  5:36  
And then so I said, well, it makes sense now, you know, considering that people who like don't know a lot think they know a lot. Why so many men have podcasts? And I was like, is this a self read?

Kristen  5:51  
Potentially, yeah. I think it makes sense, though. Because like, the more that you learn, the more you realize that there's infinite possibilities and infinite things that you don't know. And so even though you are an expert in a thing, or you know a lot about a thing, you know that there are so many other things that you don't know about. So it makes sense to me.

Prakash  6:14  
It makes sense to me to you, and then you usually don't know what you don't know until, you know, some doors and windows open and then you're like, Oh, damn, there was more outside of this room that I had been in.

Kristen  6:27  
Yeah.

Prakash  6:28  
Yeah. Anyway, speaking of doors and windows, the workplace.

Kristen  6:33  
Oh my god. Transitions.

Prakash  6:36  
I can't think of anything but Kristen, can you please tell us what our topic is today.

Kristen  6:41  
Yes. So I don't remember when you sent it, but you sent it. Someone made a tweet. Tim Bryson made a tweet. And he says, y'all ready to talk about how quote unquote professionalism is a racist construct? So we're gonna talk about that today.

Prakash  7:02  
Let's talk about it. Maybe first we can talk about our, like genealogy of professional history. 

Kristen  7:10  
Oh, God. 

Prakash  7:11  
To give context of what kind of like professional spaces I guess we're even occupying.

Kristen  7:18  
Uh, I guess.

Prakash  7:20  
It can be brief. 

Kristen  7:21  
Sorry. 

Prakash  7:21  
I can go first. So I worked in like nonprofits, charities, municipalities, in like the recreation and childcare areas. And like, disability care for a good like 10 years, I think, like since high school up until I moved to Montreal, in 2016. And then, since then, I've worked in media, writing and editing. I worked in tech and b2b business to business marketing. And I've worked a lot in the university as like a researcher and coordinator. And now I do work in the contemporary art milieu. Doing mostly, like education and project coordination. So this is where I'm sort of coming from.

Kristen  8:17  
Cool. Oh, god, okay. Sorry, guys. I've been working for like 15 years. And so I'm trying to like what is my professional trajectory? I started out in customer service moved from customer service into like, management of customer service. Before I guess switching over into more reception, administration, and then moving into archives and which is like half admin, half customer service, half actually just like I'm doing my job and people please leave me alone. That was three halves.

Prakash  9:03  
Three halves make a whole plus half. A little fraction humour.

Kristen  9:11  
Oh my god. I don't even under-, anyway, it's fine. And then I now am in still archives, still records management, but also nonprofit coordination, administration. And with archives, I've worked in many different types of settings. So private, corporate, government, nonprofit. Yeah.

Prakash  9:36  
Okay, so I think this gives us like kind of like an overview. So what I'm hearing from both of us is really that we work in like, this sort of in this realm of like, I'll just call it like para cultural institutions, in which they could be like formally like academic or corporate or like the non or like a nonprofit.

Kristen  9:58  
I think with archives, it's more that I'm infusing culture into environments rather than the environment itself being cultural. 

Prakash  10:07  
Yeah. Its like you yourself your role is very culturally based, but it's like we are not people who have like been working in, like, traditional kinds of like desk jobs. Corporate America.

Kristen  10:19  
No, but I, I work with those people doing not what they do.

Prakash  10:24  
Right. So like, yeah, near or in those environments. I would think, yeah, I think even me to back when I did work in marketing. It was not like an ad agency or anything. So it wasn't really that kind of like marketing intense. I was the only person, I was my whole, I was my whole department. It was a very small engineering consultancy. But all this to say that, like it's sort of like, teeters on this bridge between the, I guess, yeah, very, like corporatized office structure like, that we, yeah, you know, we probably think about when we think about, like, I don't know, TV like work the workplaces versus like, the highly casual spaces of like, you know, your retail or, or childcare or other kinds of like, maybe less like formalized workspaces.

Kristen  11:23  
Yeah, that makes sense. But then I'm like, I don't know, I feel like kind of like a chameleon. Like, I know that when I think of professionalism, I'm thinking of like, the corporate spaces that I go into, and then act not corporate, and they generally like, realize that I don't actually care. And so they act differently around me than they do others. But there is still that like, expectation of, I'm going to go in, I'm going to sit at my desk. I'm going to wear a certain type of clothing. I'm going to speak a certain type of way. And I don't do that, simply because I move through so many different fields, and I don't see the point of it. But then at the same time, as I don't see the point, I'm never reprimanded for not seeing the point, because I am a consultant. And so in order to reprimand me, you'd have to fire me, but I have a specialized knowledge, and therefore, you can't because you can't do the thing that I'm here to do for you.

Prakash  12:24  
Yeah, I think I'm also kind of similarly positioned in which I'm usually either like the sole person who does my particular job, or I was hired because I have a very like particular, like skill set or knowledge. And it's very, like creative based labor. And so not that, like it couldn't be replaced, but that it's not like something like an administrative tasks or something that like, if you know how to use the software, you can, like fill in the gaps of like, all of all of the work I left behind, because a lot of the work is just like in my noggin. I think this like provides a certain level of like, bodily autonomy, maybe, but I think we should backtrack a second, and maybe clarified, like when we talked about professionalism, like what are these expectations that are maybe that like, we know are there that maybe are, like, unwritten? Maybe a little bit unspoken, but we know are pervasive like or maybe I'll open with this question like to you like, what is your understanding of the expectations of professionalism?

Kristen  13:33  
Okay, so my understandings of professionalism when they are a part of my life have to do a lot with appearance. And the way that I set myself up so that others can perceive me in a particular way. And so I have to wear a certain type of clothing. My nails can't be too long or too bright. My earrings can't be too bright or too long. I have to not necessarily that I have to wear makeup but you know, like clean, clean shaven, look hygienic, blazer, business attire. And it's like yeah, there isn't, my brain isn't giving me another way to phrase this. I have to look closest to the like, superficial stereotype of a white girl as possible. But like corporate, her daddy has a lot of money, white girl that you see on TV. Like that's aspirational professionalism for a young woman in the workplace. I don't do that. But that is in my head. As like aspirational professionalism. This is the thing that they want for me. It also means that like, I'm going to speak a certain like I put on my customer service voice again when I'm in the workplace. So I'm speaking a certain way. I am being non invasive, non intrusive. And blending in with the background, so to speak.

Prakash  15:07  
I think a lot of what you're saying, I feel I've heard in like other conversations we've had on this podcast in which, yeah, there is a kind of expectation to conformity that there is, you know, you're, you're always like the other capital "o" other in the space. And so part of the work of like professionalism, or professionalizing, that we learn either, like, through our families, like, I've been told my, by my family, like my whole life that I, you know, should appear a certain way to be like, taken seriously, to be respected to like, be hireable, etc. That these like, particular values are then like, reinscribed, through school, through seeing like, who are the individuals who are, like recognized in our fields. So that could be the people who get promoted. The people who, like our managers, or the directors, or whoever the people who are like, depending on what field you're reading are the ones who are like, getting awards or grants or whatever. That those who achieved success have a very particular look. And, as we've also discussed, like, these ideas of like, success, of rewards, of like you know, meritocracy, is quite the fallacy. That like, you know, not to discredit anyone who's ever gotten anything, and has also, you know, gotten things about being white. But that often the case just is that for a lot of these people, like you're not, you're just not facing the same additional barriers to access that women are, people of colour are, women of colour, um, you know, disabled people, you know, visibly queer people, etc. So.

Kristen  16:53  
Like, for example, when I went to my like, client proposal meeting, so like, they asked me to pitch the project to them, and I went to that meeting, I made sure that I chose a black shift dress that didn't show my curves. It didn't show any of my attributes, so like, up to my neck, so they didn't realize I had big boobs. It was big so they didn't realize I had a big butt. I made sure I didn't get my nails done that week, so that I could paint them a neutral color. My hair was down and it was back in a low ponytail. So unless I turned around, they didn't know that I had dreads. I wore the like the least makeup that I normally wear. So that it was just a little bit of eyeliner, a little bit mascara. So my face looks clean, my face looks fresh, I'm only wearing my smallest of hoops. So that the fact that I'm a black woman, it's fine, because I'm a black woman who's conforming to what they think that I should conform to. So that they would hire me for this job. And I remember consciously making those decisions that day when I got up to get dressed to go to this client meeting. And I do that every client meeting, because I knew that if I showed up in like, not that I wear bright colors, but shout out to Beyonce for making me wear bright colors. But I knew that if I like showed up in the regular things that I wear, which are normally like, medium cut, low cut, they're normally tight, they're normally formed fitting, I normally have bright colors on my nails. I'm normally wearing bigger hoops or dangly earrings and my hair is normally up in a bun. And I knew that if I walked in there like that, there was less chance that I would get that contract because they would not see me as professional. Not that I didn't revert and do that like literally the first day but at that point the contract is signed, so... 

Prakash  18:30  
It was too late. 

Kristen  18:30  
I'm here now it's too late. My nails are long. They are bright blue. I'm wearing dangly earrings and wearing bright lipstick. I wore a neutral lip that day. Like this is what you get now. You signed the contract.

Prakash  18:44  
Yeah, the connery, the trickery that we have to do to like get through these hoops. And yeah, I also want to stress like I think oftentimes, like these are all sort of unspoken. 

Kristen  18:57  
Oh, yeah.

Prakash  18:57  
Like rules, guidelines. I mean, some places like do you have like particular guidelines. I think like, until very recently, the Canadian military was like you have Afro-textured hair, you cannot have protective hairstyles, but you can flat iron your hair, that's fine.

Kristen  19:14  
You can potentially damage your hair so that you can conform and your hair can look like white people's hair. But we know that your hair doesn't look like ours and doesn't function like ours, but it needs to look like it does so that you can think that you look more professional. Yeah, thanks. Thanks.

Prakash  19:30  
Because to conform to the military uniform. 

Kristen  19:34  
Right? 

Prakash  19:36  
And I'm just like, you know, there's so many reasons to like fuck the military, but. 

Kristen  19:40  
Yeah, I mean, that's how we both feel. But ya know, the uniform is not an indication that you're a professional. The fact that like you couldn't wear a uniform but also have box braids? Like, what does that I'm wearing a uniform? I'm wearing a uniform. I don't... 

Prakash  19:54  
Because I think there there has been and continues to be the sort of like white western cultural, not not understanding but like a belief that to have natural hair, braids, extensions, like big hoops, colourful nails, like, quote unquote showing off your body, but just like wearing clothes that like shows that you have your body and we talked about bodies, I think in the last episode, like, it's so ridiculous that like, again, these are things that are praised on some people, but not others.

Kristen  20:25  
But like, generally, like form fitting clothing is not appropriate for the workplace. But like form fitting on someone with curves versus form fitting on someone who is not curvy, completely different.

Prakash  20:44  
Oh, of course. Yeah. Because, I mean, we talked about how in art you know, there are just like, there are lots of like wave trends of when breasts and art go through periods of being seen as matronly and to being seen as sexual to being matronly, to being sexual, etc.

Kristen  21:02  
And I'm like the breasts exist, regardless of whether you see them as sexual or not. And the fact that you see them as sexual shouldn't have anything to do with me. But there's always that assumption that if I walk in somewhere and I'm wearing a V neck top, I'm going to be told that my top needs to be higher, even though like the person with smaller boobs beside me is wearing a top that is cut just as low as mine. But because you can see my cleavage, you have said that I am dressed too sexually. Cool. And too sexual means that I can't be professional because apparently you can't be sexual in a workplace. Like I don't, I don't know, like our bodies are our bodies, regardless of where we are existing. And it's confusing to me that because I have boobs, I can't be professional. That doesn't, doesn't make sense. 

Prakash  21:49  
I think we talked you know, many, many moons ago about academia. And how there's this like, truly this assumption that students, faculty, etc, that when you walk into the university, your body gets left behind, and you're only your minds. 

Kristen  22:04  
Yes. What?

Prakash  22:05  
And that like? Like, you know, aiding discussion through anecdote through personal experience is like not scholarly, is not intellectual. Talking about bodies is not welcome in the academy. Asking for accommodations is extremely difficult. And, you know, it doesn't have to be this way. Like these are just rules that we have made up based on like white supremacist capitalist patriarchy, and we can choose to do better.

Kristen  22:36  
You can. But it's also that like, they are truly unspoken, because I know, like, with this one contract that I have now, like I showed up the first day with my long nails with my bright lipstick, with my V neck top. And like, I was only going every other week, but I noticed like two or three weeks in that the receptionist now was also wearing her big earrings, was also getting her nails done, because she realized there was another person who was saying that it's okay to do that in this space. And she even said to me at one point, like a few months in like I would never have gotten like, I haven't gotten my nails done in years. Because I didn't feel like I could wear them here. You have shown me that I can. It's like that's how you know these, these rules are unspoken, because no one else, all the white girls in the office are not going to go and get their nails done, and have them be long with acrylics. But there's nothing to say that because I'm wearing long acrylic nails I'm not also professional.

Prakash  23:35  
Yeah, and there's some places that do you have dress codes or whatever? Like you're sure of your work at a law practice or something? They're probably a certain like...

Kristen  23:42  
Dress codes are racist.

Prakash  23:45  
Racist, classist, ridiculous, ugly like I'm tired.

Kristen  23:49  
Classist. That's also, oh my god. Professionalism is a classist structure as well.

Prakash  23:55  
100 percent. The expectation that like you dress at a certain like class bracket that you may not actually be a part of, because maybe your job doesn't pay you enough to look like you, you know, that you're making a million.

Kristen  24:12  
If you show up like there's an expectation that you look like the class bracket before you even show up. Because if you show up not looking like that, but knowing that like getting this job could put you into that class bracket. There's potential that you won't get the job because you don't look the way that they want you to look. So you're forking out money to look how they think you should look before you're even actually employed.

Prakash  24:34  
Yeah, even the expression like dress for the job you want not the job you have. Bitch how? 

Kristen  24:39  
Classist. 

Prakash  24:41  
Make it make sense. How is this possible like?

Kristen  24:45  
But it means that we're setting up very unrealistic expectations, potentially putting people in debt or precarious financial situations to look like the thing that they want, but the thing that they want is based on constructs that shouldn't exist. 

Prakash  25:04  
Yeah. 

Kristen  25:04  
Constructs that exist because white supremacy is real.

Prakash  25:07  
Speaking of I want to read this little excerpt from an article that was shared within that Twitter thread, which I'll link to where but, this comes from the Stanford Social Innovation Review. It's titled, The Bias of Professionalism Standards. This is sort of like the little tagline. "Professionalism has become coded language for white favouritism in workplace practices, that more often than not privilege the values of white western employees and leave behind people of colour." This is an article by someone named Aysa Gray from 2019. I'm just gonna read, yeah, a couple short paragraphs. 

Prakash  25:46  
"The standards of professionalism, according to American grassroots organizer-scholars Tema Okun and Keith Jones, are heavily defined by white supremacy culture—or the systemic, institutionalized centering of whiteness. In the workplace, white supremacy culture explicitly and implicitly privileges whiteness and discriminates against non-Western and non-white professionalism standards related to dress code, speech, work style, and timeliness.

Prakash  26:11  
"According to Okun and Jones, white supremacy culture at an organizational level is apparent in: the belief that traditional standards and values are objective and unbiased; the emphasis on a sense of urgency and quantity over quality, which can be summarized by the phrase “the ends justify the means”; perfectionism that leaves little room for mistakes; and binary thinking. 

Prakash  26:33  
"These values, established over time as history and fact, have been used to create the narrative of white supremacy that underpins professionalism today, playing out in the hiring, firing, and day-to-day management of workplaces around the world. The story unfolds many ways: in white and Western standards of dress and hairstyle" this includes, "(straightened hair, suits but not saris, and burqa and beard bans in some countries); in speech, accent, word choice, and communication (never show emotion, must sound “American,” and must speak white standard English); in scrutiny (black employees are monitored more closely and face more penalties as a result); and in attitudes toward timeliness and work style."

Prakash  27:17  
And so I'll link the article in the show notes. And I recommend people read it in full, but I really appreciated how this article, like really articulates how the standards of professionalism are like, in many areas, like reinforced by the sort of implicit underlying conditions of white supremacy that really pervade through like Canadian workplaces, institutions, understandings of like professional, you know, understandings of like how to be in the workplace. It's not always just on looks, but things like, yeah, speech, accent, these kinds of things. Like, by way of being an immigrant, you always seems unprofessional. And like for me, like, I think maybe my appearance, I mean, I don't think so, I obviously, I do not experience the same kind of, like appearance discrimination, as like you would, because I present as a man. We've talked about Asians of the model minority. So I don't think the same kinds of like, racial fears as like other prospective or existing Black employees and workplaces have, but I am very faggy. And so I think this is often comes across as being unprofessional. Like, again, I think that article doesn't really mention it, but like the straight washing of corporate culture. That there isn't really room for, like people outside the norm, like maybe homonormativity, which maybe we can have an episode about. But if you're gay, and you conform cool, but as soon as you know, you are a little bit too little bit too flamboyant it becomes a problem. So, like, I personally dress pretty like basic because I don't have a great sense of style. And because I'm like, I can't be bothered to like, go like buy clothes.

Kristen  29:05  
That's a fake one. I think you'd have a great sense of style if you actually went and purchased pieces, but instead you're like, This is fine. And this will be fine for the next 10 years. And that's how you roll.

Prakash  29:18  
Okay, truly, I'm wearing, I'm wearing this sweater that like it's made out of like, like recycled materials that I think I've had since like my first year of undergrad, which was a decade ago, more than that. 

Kristen  29:28  
I'm not surprised. 

Prakash  29:30  
Yeah.

Kristen  29:30  
We had to bully you into buying boots and you live in Montreal like, I...

Prakash  29:36  
Wow. I mean, it's not wrong, but I just like I just truly like, I'm not bothered by it. Like, I don't really care about, you know, my clothing attire, really. And so, like if, like if it doesn't prevent me from doing my job, I don't really see why it should be a problem.

Kristen  29:59  
That... You just said something very important. If it doesn't prevent me from doing my job, why is it a problem? I feel like like, throw that everywhere.

Prakash  30:09  
If I if I am more comfortable, you know, wearing my 11 year old recycled sweater versus like, a button up shirt that's like, you know, I have a very thick neck and a huge head. So like, many shirts, that fit cannot be buttoned up to the top. And it's like, Why? Why should I be like, you know, experiencing, like, auto erotic asphyxiation at the workplace? Isn't that more inappropriate if I'm like, you know,

Kristen  30:38  
Thank you. That's also my thing. Like, isn't it more inappropriate for me to continually be fixing my clothing and continually be fixing the things that you've told me that I have to do? Like, shouldn't I just be able to exist? Here? 

Prakash  30:52  
Yeah. 

Kristen  30:52  
Like, you're literally like, paying me to do a thing that you cannot do yourself. Like, that's what jobs are. Here's money for this labour that I cannot do myself. Why can I not do that labour in peace? Like, I...

Prakash  31:06  
I know, I tried to find this TikTok, but I couldn't find it. In which the TikToker explains that basically, for any job you are there to save the employer time and or money.

Kristen  31:16  
Exactly. So now I'm saving you time and or money, but I have to be professional by your white western standards as well, while I save you time and money?

Prakash  31:26  
Yeah. Or I have to, like do this and pretend to be like a straight man or something or like, shutter. 

Kristen  31:32  
Yeah. 

Prakash  31:32  
The... Yeah. So I do something similar to you like, when I'm on Zoom, I like look pretty basic. But then, when I have to, like go to a work events, I think it's easier now that I work in, like the cultural sector, which is, I think, a little bit more open minded in some respects, not all. But yeah, I will, like, wear things a little bit less gray. Usually. But yeah, I like wear earrings. Like if people have never seen me, I like have long hair, I have nose rings, like my tattoos might be a bit more visible. Like, these kinds of things that like, my parents are like, very, you know, scandalizing and like, you know, it made me unemployable. But I am like, I'm actually like, I know that I'm like, very good at my jobs. My multiple jobs like, you know, I'm very, I'm like, slowly working my way up into, I think being like, a more known figure in my particular industry, as like, people reach out to me for work and like, recognize me at at events that are not hosted by my own workplaces, and things of that nature. And so I was thinking about this, as we were talking, but I think really my sort of, like, fuck, the workplace icon is the character of Elle Woods from Legally Blonde. Who herself is like, you know, like, in today's standard is like, you know, like...

Kristen  32:47  
Yeah. 

Prakash  32:48  
...that is, like, there's nothing wrong with how she presents but in the context of Legally Blonde, but because she is like, so blonde and femme is seen as unprofessional in Harvard Law, and, but she was like no one, I'm going to use my particular situated knowledge to solve this case. You hoes could never and I was like, like, give it up. Like icon. And I think we should all like, don't let the like forced kind of impression of quote unquote professionalism, like, you should not let these like unspoken, guidelines, rules, whatever, like stop you from being your most authentic self, because you are your mind and body, and experiences and identities all the time in every, every space. And you should not let White supremacy take that away from you, or like diminish it or make you feel not as worthy because you are not white or don't have straight hair or don't have the most expensive clothes or have an accent or you know, XYZ like fuck all of that and just you know, do you.

Kristen  33:59  
See, I'm like half on board. Because like I am on board with you are worthy. Regardless of what white supremacy is telling you, you as you exist, all the parts of you are worthy. But being your full self in a white supremacist work environment with the expectation that you need to be professional could put your financial class, job situition at risk. Like I think that the both of us come at this from a very privileged place of having like, we are recruited. We are asked to do the jobs that we do. We go into these workplaces that expect professionalism with a degree of like, you can take me or leave me because I can go somewhere else for work. Not everybody who has all of the intersections that we potentially have can do that or has that opportunity. And so there is still a like not to say that they shouldn't be their full selves but also like, there's nuance to that, because not all workplaces will support them as they become their full selves. And not all people enter workplaces with the privilege that we do. 

Kristen  35:12  
Like it was 100% fine for me to walk into this client office with my long blue nails, and my bright purple lipstick and my hair up in a bun and my long earrings on the first day, because I had negotiated a contract with them that like for the next 12 months, I'm working for you, and I'm doing these things that you cannot do yourself. So even if they were upset by my appearance, they could do nothing about my appearance unless they wanted to cancel the contract. And they needed my skills. So they could not cancel the contract. And now they like me. So I can show up dressed however I want to dress because they know that regardless of how I look, I can do the job that they asked me to do. Not everybody has that privilege. Like, for example, the receptionist who now wears nails doesn't wear them all the time because it could put her job at risk. She wears them sometimes and generally, because I'm going to be there. You know? Like, yeah.

Prakash  36:04  
Yeah, I think that's a very important caveat, which is why I wanted to, like start off the episode explaining, like, where we are situated. 

Kristen  36:08  
Right. 

Prakash  36:08  
Because clearly, this is also like, does not work across industry. Like, if you are a nurse, you cannot have long nails in your gloves, you know, like, obviously. But I do want encourage people who like yeah, obviously, you shouldn't do anything that compromises your ability to to, like, take care of yourself, I think like, you know, obviously survival isn't the first, first and foremost. 

Prakash  36:27  
But if you are in a union, if you do have some kind of like, institutional privilege, like vis a vis the industry you work in, your particular title, if you have people who work below you, who you think like might sort of like be teetering on this edge of like, wanting to be, you know, like, more authentic to themselves, but are sort of like struggling under the weight of the oppression of like the system like to encourage people to, yeah, you know, like, be wholer versions of themselves if not, you know, the whole self. Like, like, I think we talk like about disability a lot like sort of in the in betweens of a lot of our conversations, but like encouraging to ask your employees or whoever the people around you, like if they have access needs like that, you know, maybe they're keeping to themselves, but like maybe people need more time to think during meetings or maybe like some people can't stand for very long or like whatever and so they might be like retreating because they don't want to make their needs like heard. And I think that if we all I think like yeah, we can all sort of like do small small parts within the spaces in which we operate. Like you know, quote unquote professionally like whatever your occupation is, whatever I mean, it can it can be paid or not like it might be a volunteer situation, but like, if you can make room for for people to like breathe a little bit more and like not feel so burdened under the weight of kind of other conformity into this very like ablest and white supremacist and like patriarchal sexist structure, then I definitely encourage you to, to make that space.

Kristen  38:03  
Yeah, definitely.

Prakash  38:06  
Alright, hope you enjoyed seeing him two weeks for new episode. Until then stay in the know.

Both  38:19  
Bye. 

Kristen  38:19  
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