...About White Flight?

Transcript available here.

We talk about white fragility in housing, wtf an "ethnoburb" is, and more exasperation around white nonsense, xenophobia, and racism in real estate. 

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

Find us: @dothekidsknow (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok)
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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time. Stay in the know~!

Transcript

Prakash  0:16  
Hey kids and welcome back to Do the Kids Know? That is this show we were talking about race, media, pop culture, and politics in triple K Canada. And who Lord this is we're recording the day after this whole flu trucks clan Ottawa convoy protest. 

Kristen  0:38  
No. 

Prakash  0:39  
Insurgence. Ridiculousness, if we can call it that, in KKK Canada for real. 

Kristen  0:43  
Honestly, I'm so tired. 

Prakash  0:45  
I hate it here. Anyway, I'm Prakash, one of your hosts, and with me on Zoom, is Kristen say, hey.

Kristen  0:55  
Hel- he...

Prakash  0:59  
Say, hey, or just groan. That works too. Identifiable groan.

Kristen  1:05  
You're welcome. Yeah. I'm here.

Prakash  1:10  
And, yeah, we're back again to talk to you about things. And that thing this week is going to be a white flight, which we were referenced, I'm pretty sure and our episode on gentrification. 

Kristen  1:22  
Yeah. 

Prakash  1:22  
So if you haven't heard that one yet, go back, listen to it and then come back and listen to this. But before we get into our topic of convo today, we are going to check in with our astrology co-star app for us to find out how we should be doing better question mark in our lives. Question mark. Kristen, what did you get this week?

Kristen  1:48  
It's not even this week. This happened while we have been on this zoom with each other. Okay? 

Prakash  1:53  
All right. I'm ready. 

Kristen  1:54  
So co-star has told me, or asked me I guess, what keeps you up at night?

Prakash  2:01  
That is a good question, because you often are up at night.

Kristen  2:07  
I don't sleep. My body doesn't let me. Sometimes it's painful. Sometimes I just can't sleep.

Prakash  2:12  
Yeah, that hurts me. Like I too go through like periods of insomnia that will like last like a few weeks. And I'm like a different person. But I have slept pretty well for last couple of weeks. And I'm also different person. I'm like, wow, having energy. Like feeling rested. 

Kristen  2:27  
What's that like? 

Prakash  2:28  
What? But I'm like, am I limitlessing? 

Kristen  2:33  
Oh, my God. 

Prakash  2:34  
The way I read like three books this week, and like, did all my things I needed to do and cooked food and like, wow, I cannot be I cannot be stopped. 

Kristen  2:43  
That... 

Prakash  2:44  
I'm a normal human being.

Kristen  2:49  
I'll just continue to be abnormal, abnormal over here because that I'm tired. From your description of the things you did this week. 

Prakash  2:56  
Yeah. 

Kristen  2:57  
I also have don't know it being rested is like. What is that?

Prakash  3:04  
That pains me. That pains me on your behalf.

Kristen  3:07  
Thanks. I guess? I don't know. It's an abstract concept. I don't miss it. Because I don't know what it is. Yeah, what did co-star tell you this week? Pull us out of this hole of no sleep that I've dropped us into.

Prakash  3:22  
Yep. So yesterday it told me. Everyone deserves to be listened to and loved.

Kristen  3:28  
No. No. I mean, maybe but not by me.

Prakash  3:32  
Also not everybody. Not for this weekend.

Kristen  3:37  
I mean, just in general. No, I won't be the one. Everybody is deser- No. Which is why I'm like maybe they are, but not by me. Maybe somebody will love them. But I don't know who.

Prakash  3:54  
Yeah. I think about trying to be more generous with how I approach people with opinions that are not just different from mine, but that are actively harmful. And...

Kristen  4:10  
I don't have time for that.

Prakash  4:11  
Yeah, unless its like a work context. And that's my paid job to listen empathetically. Sure. But outside of that, I'm not, I'm not doing it.

Kristen  4:25  
Oh, I don't... No. No, that's not my lane. I'm sure it's the lane of many other people. It's not mine.

Prakash  4:37  
Anyway, let us smoothly move into our topic. People that we should listen and love Kristen, the whites.

Kristen  4:48  
I knew you were gonna do that. And I was like, bracing myself in anticipation for how I would have it and I still hated it more than I thought I would.

Prakash  4:56  
Yeah. So we're talking about white flight and to briefly sum up this phenomenon essentially, as we talked about, in our episode on gentrification but, you know, the suburbs, really a very, like a white construction in North America. And so white people moving out of the citiess creating these sort of like, safe havens for themselves and their nuclear families. And this became how the progression of wealth moved from the cities into the suburbs. So when immigrants and people of colour also started earning more money and having some wealth, they to followed the trajectory of moving from the city, into the suburb. But then, at a certain point, once a neighborhood and reaches a threshold of like, 8%, non-white, we tend to see white people leaving certain neighborhoods. 

Kristen  5:52  
Okay, hold on. So if there's 100 white people, and then out of that, like 100, white people, eight of them leave, and now are colored white people start to leave? 

Prakash  6:04  
Yep. 

Kristen  6:06  
That is a much smaller number than I was anticipating, which is why I needed clarification.

Prakash  6:14  
Okay, I can't find the source where I got the number 8% from, but we can just, we can just generalize it. Because there there is like a very like tracked phenomenon of when population demographics start to shift, and more and more of like a minority population or populations move into like predominately white neighborhoods, that there is like then an exodus of white people that tends to be sort of like, yeah, inversely proportional. So like, the more and more yeah, people like, people of colour who come in, the more white people leave, maybe its not inversely proportional. I dunno whatever math.

Kristen  6:54  
Like, I'm not the one who would know.

Prakash  6:56  
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it's like, kay cause like, yeah, because if they're equal the whites, you know, they leave now its the opposite. The numbers function, opposite directions. More POCs. 

Kristen  7:07  
Okay. 

Prakash  7:07  
Fewer whites. Okay, anyways, not important. So, this is like this is an observable phenomenon. And I'm going to give a more elaborate definition i'm going to read this abstract from this article, I'll link in the show notes, called Diversifying Neighbourhoods and Schools and Gender Perceptions of Foreign Cultural Threat Among White Americans. This comes from the Journal of Experimental Psychology in which they write, "a nationally representative survey, in five experiments revealed that whites perceived a foreign cultural threat or a threat to their American culture and way of life, from the protected growth of racial and ethnic minority populations in their majority white neighborhoods and schools. Whites perceived the increasing presence of Arab Americans, Latinos, and Asian Americans to pose an especially strong degree of perceived foreign cultural threat relative to Black Americans, who were perceived as more threatening, than no demographic change. Furthermore, perceptions of foreign cultural threat, predicted white's desires to move out above and beyond other established intergroup threats, eg realistic and symbolic threats. These findings highlight how whites' concerned about losing their American culture and way of life as racial and ethnic minority groups enter majority white neighborhoods and schools may contribute to the maintenance of racial segregation."

Kristen  8:40  
It only may contribute? Mmm okay. Because like, literally, that was all about white perception of other people. White perception of what could possibly happen if other people moved into their neighborhood,. It was not grounded in fact, and then the perception led to changes like I I don't know.

Prakash  9:09  
Yeah, but I thought, I mean, many things in this article were interesting. In no particular order, the fact that yeah, based like there are literal threats, but they perceive like people of colour, as more threatening than, let's say, a school shooter, or like actual threats that exist in America. And again, Canada is just baby America. And so it's very, very likely that whatever, like trends we see there, we also see here, maybe on a smaller scale. But also this is pretty well documented, especially in COVID, that Canada does not keep a lot of race based data. So it is harder to do these kinds of studies, but we can really extrapolate from America to think about how Canadian attitudes and again if you were confused, please just look up what happened with this whole like truck situation because the impetus for that was really January 6th, 2021 and we are America.

Kristen  10:10  
No Prakash, they just want to be free. Free of what I'm not sure but they just want to be free.

Prakash  10:18  
I'm just gonna like a detour truck pun, detour for one very quick second. So you're telling me that all of this hullabaloo is because you don't want to get vaccinated which you do not have to you can still maintain your job. However, you will need the problem is for them that they would have to then self isolate after coming back from the US into Canada, except that we had the same border rules. So they to if they want to go to the US would have to cross the border and then self isolate and then finish their job. So they which they cannot do so they already cannot go to the US they cannot leave Canada therefore, they don't have to like they cannot isolate when they come back to Canada because they cannot leave Canada. Like what are you what are you on about? And all the tweets that are like these people like screaming that they want to like you know that they're demanding back their rights as they literally protest across the country with no one impeding them, with no one impeding them. And now just like take one quick look at the same actions when these people were like walking across Canada to Ottawa and the way that they did not get this kind of press coverage the way that they were not supported which they did not raise $6 million in fucking go fund me that was organized by a white supremacist. People with white supremacist organizational ties, bitch like I...

Kristen  11:43  
It's, it's $9 million now. And there was only one arrest all weekend.

Prakash  11:47  
I thought go fund me suspended the oh my god, I hate it here. This is gonna be very outdated by the time this episode comes out. But I just want to know, I just want you all to know that. I'm mad. And this is so stupid. And I hate it here. And especially because like, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna talk about Brampton in this episode. But there are like a lot of people in Brampton, the people that we know who like whose families like their income, like as children, their incomes came from parents who were truck drivers. Like Brampton has such a huge trucking industry. And we're talking about Brampton also has a huge, like, it is a majority, like Brown population. And like this is not about trucking. Like truckers by and large are vaccinated, have sense, are immigrants, like, at least in southern Ontario, just trying to like you know, feed their families live their lives.

Kristen  12:41  
Well that's that's the thing that like, truck like they are the minority of truckers and like most truckers and like associations and things have gone to the media to be like this is the minority voice this is not all of us they do not represent the industry. And yet...

Prakash  13:00  
Yeah, it just like really annoys me when like this very thinly veiled. Like white supremacy...

Kristen  13:08  
The veil isn't even thin okay? The veil is transparent. We all see what you're trying to do here.

Prakash  13:14  
People still don't get it and I see on my tablet every time every time I see someone being like Oh yeah, you know, they should be able to fight for their rights I'm like no block. Like you're uninformed and I...

Kristen  13:27  
You know what? What rights what rights are they fighting for? What rights? Tell me?

Prakash  13:33  
Maybe maybe white fight is the way is the solution. Let them go let them go. Please leave, flee. Flee my neighbourhoods. Get out of here. Take your nonsense and get out.

Kristen  13:45  
Honestly, flee. Can we let Indigenous people take back their land? Like, can we do that?

Prakash  13:50  
No because they flee into Indigenous lands. That's the problem.

Kristen  13:52  
Fuck.

Prakash  13:53  
Yeah. And then they flee into treaty lands. This is like... 

Kristen  14:00  
Oh my God. 

Prakash  14:02  
Oh, oh, the prairies Alberta and Sasketchewan specifically. Yeah. Okay, so we can we can discuss why this is white flight. But I wanted to talk about Brampton because that's where we from. If you're not familiar, Brampton is a very large populous suburb outside of Toronto. On a Sunday morning from like to get from my parents house to downtown Toronto is like a 30 minute drive. Because the GTA is ridiculous in a normal rush hour day, it's like an hour and a half. But it shouldn't be. It is quite close. It's one of one of the closer the suburbs. Let me find the exact numbers, but between 2001 and 2021, so like, like a 20 year span. There was like a drop of like the white population, I think of like 50,000 people, something like that.

Kristen  14:54  
I'm not surprised. I remember when we were in high school, that there was an article In the Brampton Guardian about white people leaving Brampton for Georgetown. 

Prakash  15:05  
Hmm. 

Kristen  15:06  
And we were in high school like a decade ago.

Prakash  15:10  
Yeah. When did we graduate? Yeah. Well, over a decade.

Kristen  15:16  
Over a decade now? Yeah. 

Prakash  15:16  
It's, yeah, it's wild. And the thing is, like, like I mentioned before, that like these, like, the the stats sort of, like, white populations and non-white populations are, like, inversely proportional, so that as one goes up, one goes down. But the thing is, like cities grow, like the size of a city is not stable. It's not like, oh, when people come in, people have to leave. That's not the case. Like, the white population could stay the same or could also grow. Like maybe, maybe the percentages might shift because like, the white population is staying the same. But there are more and more non-whites moving in, then. Yeah, again, you might see like the percentage wise, an inverse relationship. However, the actual population numbers would be the same. But yeah literally in Brampton the numbers are going down. Not only populations, but like the straight up numbers are decreasing. And why is this? Well, you can just take a look at some of these articles that I pulled up. Where's my where's my favorite one? It was very funny. 

Kristen  16:13  
You have a favorite? Why is it your favourite? 

Prakash  16:16  
Because I cite it in my thesis, just to give context about what I was talking about in my thesis. And this was from 2016 that says how Brampton a town in suburban Ontario was dubbed a ghetto. And I mean I mean I make this joke a lot because like... 

Kristen  16:33  
Tell me more. Tell me more.

Prakash  16:34  
There were things about Brampton about our about us growing up in Brampton that was really ghetto. Like the fact that we had police officers that would help us I cross from building to building.

Kristen  16:41  
Yo, Turner Fenton was... Turner Fenton was ghetto, okay? Like...

Prakash  16:44  
Like, like the Brampton like the Peel Police used our school as like training practice, because ridiculous. My one of my favorite stories, someone lit my bag on fire when I was walking, like I remember people pulling up like pulling people into cars, and like, like beating them up because of like, niner day or whatever, like stupid things like this. 

Kristen  17:08  
Yeah. 

Prakash  17:08  
The fact that we had, like our school had in Ontario there kind of two streams of education, academic and applied for people who want to go the university route or the college route. But we also had the IB program. And we also had, like these vocational one and vocational two, which were seen as like, I guess, even more rudimentary than applied, but the way that they were called at the time of basic and special basic.

Kristen  17:35  
Oh, my God, I forgot that. We called it.

Prakash  17:38  
Yeah, I mean, I thought I thought it was lit. I think this is a great programming, because instead of the school they had with the auto garage, so you could like come out of the school with like...

Kristen  17:46  
They did, yeah.

Prakash  17:46  
...a certificate and like mechanics, or they had also like a hair school and a culinary school. But yeah, the school itself, the architecture, ghetto, and this one fucking this culinary school's fire alarm would go off so often.

Kristen  18:02  
Often. Well, it's like, okay, but Turner Fenton used to be to schools, like part of the reason that the like auto classes and the hair classes and whatever could be held at Fenton is because that used to be what Fenton was for. And so you would go to Turner, if you were going to university, you would go to Fenton, if you were studying trades, and then they combine the schools into one, and then forced us all to have classes in both buildings instead of just one building.

Prakash  18:31  
Yeah. And I still don't understand why our like the football field, but it was a hill, like it wasn't flat. And then that always confused me.

Kristen  18:42  
And, okay, but this is not supposed to be about why our school was ghetto.

Prakash  18:46  
And so I often joke, that yeah, ghetto, but more more as like a qualify or not as a literal ghetto. Because it was, it was fine. Like. 

Kristen  18:55  
Yeah. 

Prakash  18:55  
You know, we were well... 

Kristen  18:57  
Yeah, grand scheme of things it was fine. It was like one of the largest schools in Peel in Ontario. And so therefore, too many of us in this small space, obviously, chaos is going to ensue. I don't know. Like you put way too many teenagers in the same place. And the situations are not wonderful. And then you don't expect chaos?

Prakash  19:14  
Like 2500 Kids and 500 staff members in a place that was not very big. 

Kristen  19:19  
Crazy. 

Prakash  19:19  
And so it was more like not a ghetto. It was just really like the situation of underfunded public education. And a really dense population. Which like, yeah, is not the sort of like middle it's definitely not the sort like middle class schooling we see on TV, but it is it wasn't like we weren't Precious, you know? 

Kristen  19:41  
No.

Prakash  19:41  
There are like, there are levels, but the reason why Brampton is called a ghetto, according to this article, but also I think, according to like even us who who are from then who live there is because of this, like the metrics of white flight sort of suggest that the way that Brampton has become the article calls it an ethno burb.

Kristen  20:03  
What is an ethno perp?

Prakash  20:04  
Let me find how it's described here?

Kristen  20:06  
Is it just, it's a suburb without white people like I don't? What? 

Prakash  20:10  
Yeah, it's because it is like a suburb that, yeah, has a really, like really heavy and specific ethnic population. So in Brampton, specifically, there is a really, really like large Punjabi Sikh population. But also, there are like so many different kinds of immigrant groups, but you do see the predominant Punjabi presence.

Kristen  20:32  
I'm still stuck on the fact that ethnic burb feels very white supremacist to me, but yes.

Prakash  20:38  
This is written by a person of colour, Noreen Ahmed Ullah.

Kristen  20:42  
That doesn't mean it's not white supremacist.

Prakash  20:44  
I'm just saying. Okay, so as we know, there have been ongoing racial tensions and Brampton. And so this article references that saying, "Racial tensions ignite over everything from permit battles for a new temple to fireworks regulations for Diwali. In 2014 anti-Sikh flyers distributed by an immigration reform group called Immigration Watch, entitled, the Changing Face of Brampton-". Do you remember getting this because I do. Wild. "and asking residents, Is this really what you want, sparked outrage among Sikh community groups. Another flyer distributed in March 2015, warned of the city's dwindling, quote unquote, European population, implying the decline was a result of, quote, white genocide, end quote. Whether it is quote unquote white genocide, or quote unquote, white flight, few would dispute that the town has lost a sizable chunk of its white population. While academics shy away from using the term white flight to describe what happened to Bromptons white families. Residents speak freely of what they observe in their own neighborhoods." And then there's interviews with some people who like are discussing their like lived experiences in Brampton. But I yeah, I think this is quite interesting of a phenomenon, especially in this like, it is Brampton is a usually votes liberal, but it's not a very liberal ideology to be like, there are too many Browns. So I'm gonna go bye.

Kristen  22:13  
Um, I think I'm interested to know what ridings because like, Brampton potentially is Liberal because of the number of people who are in the newer parts of Brampton, not necessarily the older parts of Brampton. So like, I know that the riding that my parents live in, always is Liberal. It doesn't, it's Liberal, doesn't matter. But I also know that there's a lot of Black and Brown people in our riding. And there have been...

Prakash  22:46  
Yeah, I think mine too.

Kristen  22:46  
...for the entire time we've lived there. 

Prakash  22:48  
It's basically always liberal. But yeah, it is sort of like a lower income area. Compared to other parts of Brampton.

Kristen  22:54  
Cause I'm like, do we just have more votes? Like, is it actually representative? I don't know.

Prakash  23:00  
Its interesting, because in another article, it discusses how like, Brampton has such a predominantly like Sikh population. And there is like, quite a lot of like, Punjabi representation within the cabinet. But actually, in terms of like, Brampton's, like City Council, I think there's only one person. 

Kristen  23:21  
Oh, it's white. It's super white. 

Prakash  23:23  
Which is like, very interesting.

Kristen  23:24  
Yeah. But see, that's why I'm asking about numbers like, is Brampton liberal? Because Brampton is liberal? Or, like, could the potential white conservatives in Brampton, ever actually make Brampton conservative? And I think the answer is no. And so I think like doubly they are leaving, but because they continue to leave, the conservative numbers continue to drop. You know?

Prakash  23:54  
That's true. I mean, I do also see a lot of like, I don't know there are a lot of like, nouveau riche bougie Brown people who are like, my taxes. And I'm like oh god.

Kristen  24:06  
No, it's like I'm laughing because I can like see the stereotype the exact stereotype that you are describing in my head like standing in front of their like, new bougie ass like suburb home.

Prakash  24:19  
No, its so true and like, you know, if you want to know more you can read my thesis, I do write a lot about it about how the political or the political organization of South Asian groups specifically Sikh and Punjabi groups are they really really like they are like really strong organizers. And historically that has worked really well to like for the Liberal Party. But as they are like more and more just generally South Asian representation in the Conservative Party of Canada, that yeah, it's maybe becoming more like maybe like historically conservative voters are leaving but I think, because of changing like, financial demographics within Brampton, because you do have to be quite wealthy now to move there. Because the Greater Toronto Area in general is like, astronomically expensive.

Kristen  25:05  
Expensive.

Prakash  25:09  
But yeah, that's another argument that I've seen people make is that oh, they're not leaving because its diverse they're leaving because they, they being white people are leaving because cities are now unaffordable.

Kristen  25:21  
To them? 

Prakash  25:22  
Yep. 

Kristen  25:27  
Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. Not to say that, that all white people are middle or upper class. Definitely that is not true. But most of the white people who were living in Brampton and have the means to leave Brampton are leaving Brampton because they are middle or upper class. Because I'm like, the like, lower income whites, do they have the money to leave Brampton? Do they have the opportunity to leave Brampton?

Prakash  25:58  
Hard to say. I would think, I mean, yeah, we just do. Yeah, we also do know that like most of the wealth in Canada is constitutively now within the white population, but again, like that's because there are many other white billionaires and that might skew  the demographics a bit, but also, the ways that like Canada versus the UK versus the US have had like, very different immigration policies has meant that often people with wealth already who want to migrate to the west, go to the US. And it's like more so people who come via, like refugee status or via, like a skilled trade, visa or PR, come to Canada. And so yeah, often not the people with the financial means to move because also, I think we talked about this before, but the ability to move kind of across Canada, or even just to move anywhere really is a privilege. And yeah, yeah, part of you about the issue with the ethno burb that some people took disagreements with is the fact that you do you see a lot of like, multi-generational households, in places like Brampton, in which, you know, not only like parents and kids, but it could be the parents, parents, it could be the kids kids, you see, like, three or four generations, like living in a home together, because that's the only way to make ends meet. And as you know, a lot of us to immigrants come from a culture of like, really, really strong family connections. And so it could be a normalized practice for certain groups, but is seen as like, apparently threatening if we go back to that abstract that I read way in the beginning.

Kristen  27:43  
Yeah. Yeah. That's also like, hilariously, it has been a thing. That has been said to me as a reason why, like, people aren't buying homes and a reason why white people are leaving is because there's just too many people in single homes now, like single family homes were not made to have that many generations living in them. And so they shouldn't live in them in these ways.

Prakash  28:10  
I mean, I think in Montreal specifically, I'm like, do you think people really want to have like, five, six people living in a two bedroom or one bedroom apartment? It's not ideal. But then people tend to go, I think that's what people like people who don't understand or people who are not immigrants. I think like white immigrants might also understand this. I mean, they should because we see it like how I think the biggest population of Icelandic people, is in Manitoba, because like, at some point, I don't think this was like, recent, at some point, there was a migration of Icelandic people. Icelanders, I don't know. Hello, friend, my friend, Gudni. If you're listening to this, can you let me know. He's from Iceland. He told me this, that yeah, that's they like, at some point, I think in the 40s, they had moved to Manitoba now that there just is like this like group. And so let's say now if you were going to, yeah, like move from your country to another country, like it would make the most sense to go, where the people who like...

Kristen  29:06  
Go where they are, yeah. 

Prakash  29:07  
...have a common culture, have a common language, religion, etc, to go and help you get established. Which is like the story of like many immigrants that I know. And my parents to like, you know, my dad's so famous story. It's like, he came with a phone number and a backpack and whatever and was like, hello, so and so I'm like, so and so's kid. I just arrived, can you like help me get it together? We're both being Malaysian and he did and my parents have gone on to do this for other like Malaysian and Indian immigrants who've come and like, you know, me, like might not have the greatest grasp of English just might not even know where to get started. Where to find resources, that kind of thing. And so it makes sense to like, yeah, go to where your people are, which is why like Brampton, Surrey are examples of like two really big hotspots for South Asian migration, because you can get everything you need and all the resources are there. Versus going somewhere like, there might be like less populated like, I don't know, Winnipeg. Do you remember when I almost moved there? I think about that sometimes. I'm like wow, I almost moved to Winnipeg. 

Kristen  30:17  
I was thinking about that. That's why I covered my mouth so I didn't talk.

Prakash  30:20  
That would've been a time. And then COVID too. I mean I wasn't planning, well COVID  would have happened while, never mind. This is this is not important to the story. I do want to return to one more thing in that abstract that I read at the beginning. In this study its from 2021 so it's a it's a quite recent but truly like that, yeah, that whites perceived the increased presence of literally everybody like Arabs, Latinx people, Asians, as like strong foreign threats. And I think we talked too about the idea that of the professional foreigners and how some of us does not matter how long we've been here, how we speak how it is that we will always be seen as like, not of this place. These are all groups that are afforded the myth of the model minority, something that like Black folk, Indigenous folk are not, and yet, don't get comfortable because based on how I read it, I feel like they having an increase of people is like more threatening the Black people who will already there, which I'm like... 

Kristen  31:20  
Yeah. 

Prakash  31:21  
Okay, it's just like some is inversely progressive, like the Blacks, they're fine. Now we learned about BLM. It's cool. These others though, these West Asians, these other Asians, these Latinos...

Kristen  31:32  
But see... 

Prakash  31:33  
Question mark.

Kristen  31:33  
Then I said like, like, what is it the devil, you know, versus the devil you don't?

Prakash  31:40  
Mmm hmm. Yeah, the idea of like the foreign and I think like this, like loss of culture that this article cites, because...

Kristen  31:48  
Like, white flight is just like steeped in white supremacy still, because like, the nation that we live in Canada exists because white people came here and demolished the culture, demolished the people, demolished the land, and put in place their structures. And so there's the assumption with white flight, that other people are going to come in and do the same thing. We will not be able to coexist together, because you are going to come and wreak havoc, and bring in your systems the way that we came in and wreaked havoc to build ours. And like, I don't, I don't know how to end that. But I'm like, That, to me is why white flight exists, because they're like, you are going to bring destruction to my way of being the same way that Canada exists, because we brought destruction to the Indigenous way of being.

Prakash  32:40  
Yeah. That's it. They're scared to not reap what they sow but the other, you know, there is like this fear of having been done unto them, what they had done unto others.

Kristen  32:56  
And like, what the, what they're feeling the benefits of having been done to others. That's not English. But I think you know, what I'm trying to say. 

Prakash  33:06  
I mean, you know, the, I have no respect for this language. So I feel you. I do feel you though. I think yeah, one of the key issues here is that like, again, when white people control the majority of the wealth in this country, when they leave neighborhoods, we end up with situations like Brampton, in which we were overpopulated and underfunded in terms of education. And so I think these are sort of like...

Kristen  33:29  
In terms of so many things. 

Prakash  33:30  
...the larger problems that we need to think about as we observe these kinds of behaviors. 

Kristen  33:34  
Brampton only has one hospital I'm sorry, Peel, Peel. I think like No, Brampton has like, a hospital and a half now like so just underfunded in so many things, not just education. Like they they we had one hospital and then they built a fancy new hospital and then closed the old hospital instead of having both hospitals running. 

Both  33:52  
Yeah. 

Kristen  33:53  
Yeah.

Prakash  33:55  
I mean, yeah, I can go I can go on Brampton, but we should probably end this here we've been talking for quite some time now.

Kristen  34:01  
Oh, god. Okay. Good luck to you editing this.

Prakash  34:06  
Thanks. And we will see you all in two weeks with a new episode until then stay in the know. 

Both  34:10  
Bye.

Kristen  34:18  
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