...Whether to Decriminalize or Legalize Drugs?

Transcript available here.

This is part one of a two-parter in which we discuss the merits and pitfalls around the decriminalization vs legalization debate. In this episode, we focus specifically on what is the better approach when it comes to drugs. Looking at the legalization of cannabis as an example, we discuss what should be the move for other drugs going forward.

Reading Material:
Article: The Mysterious History Of 'Marijuana'
Fact Sheet:  About the Good Samaritan Drug Overdose Act
Study: Experimental Study on Ketamine Use
Scientific Review: Therapeutic Use of LSD in Psychiatry

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Do The Kids Know? is a biweekly series of discussions between community workers and educators, Prakash and Kristen, that unpack race, media, popular culture, and politics in KKKanada (That’s Canada spelled with three K’s) from an anti-colonial perspective.

Our goal is to bring nuance to sensationalist media as well as to uncover the ways in which white supremacy, capitalism, and colonialism is shaping our movements and behaviours. 

Keep tuning in to be a part of the conversation… don’t be a kid who doesn’t know!

Find us: @dothekidsknow (Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok)
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Artwork by Daniela Silva (instagram.com/danielasilvatrujillo)
Music by Steve Travale (https://stevetravale.com)

DTKK is recorded on the traditional and unceded Indigenous lands of the Kanien’kehá:ka Nation. We are committed to working with Indigenous communities and leaders locally and across Turtle Island to fight for Indigenous rights, resurgence, and sovereignty. 

Until next time.

Transcript

Prakash  0:15  
Hey y'all, and welcome back to Do the Kids Know? That the show where we talk about race, media, politics, and pop culture in triple K Canada. I'm one of your hosts Prakash. On my screen, is Kristen. 

Kristen  0:28  
Sup. 

Prakash  0:29  
And yeah we're back again to keep talking to you, educating you, sometimes not. Sometimes just talking about things. And today our topic is this like sort of debate or discussion, discourse, if you will, around whether or not we should move towards decriminalization of things, or legalization. And by things, I mean, we could be talking a lot of things I think specifically we're going to focus our conversations around drug use and sex work as these are topics that we have talked about in the past. And you know, we'll just give a little bit more context about where lies these two arguments. Maybe like where do we as individuals fall upon this. Because obviously, we are pro the non-criminalization. Sorry, what? We are anti-criminalization of drug use, and of sex work, we talked about this, you know, in our episode about harm reduction. But yeah, decrim versus legalization, we will discuss. But first to prep ourselves to be talking. We have our fun intro game, which is looking at how co-star read us this week.

Kristen  1:42  
Do you want to go first? 

Prakash  1:43  
Okay. So the other day co-star told me to try not to think of other people as projections of your own psyche today. 

Kristen  1:51  
Whoa. 

Prakash  1:56  
Which is a lot, because I do I do be projecting. And this something that I have talked to my therapist at length. That I project people's expectations of me based on unrealistic expectations I have on myself. And I'm aware. We're working on it.

Kristen  2:16  
Well, I guess co-star thinks you're on the right track in working on it.

Prakash  2:22  
I would hope so. But who knows that bitch. But what about you? What was your co-star words of wisdom this week.

Kristen  2:32  
So the words of wisdom that I got this week, were not as rough as yours. 

Prakash  2:39  
We love to see it. 

Kristen  2:41  
Literally. Co-star yesterday told me, don't ignore your gut. And as somebody who's chronically ill, I don't know how to take that.

Prakash  2:50  
Yeah, it's metaphorical or is it like, please stop eating things you're allergic to? 

Kristen  2:56  
Right? 

Prakash  2:56  
Hard to say.

Kristen  2:57  
I don't know. I don't know. Unclear. 

Prakash  3:00  
Food for thought. While we discuss today's topic. We'll start with talking about drug use. So you know, here we are in Canada, in which marijuana has been legalized. And so what does this mean? Here in Quebec, we have something called the SQDC. I can't remember what it stands for societie drug something association.

Kristen  3:22  
There are too many acronyms here. It's fine. 

Prakash  3:24  
And they're all so similar like. 

Kristen  3:26  
Yup. 

Prakash  3:26  
SAQ, SAAC, SQDC. It's all societe something Quebec something fill in the blanks, but basically the only like legal way to obtain weed in Quebec is to go to one of these government buildings. Kind of like we have a provincial liquor store called the SAQ, Ontario, you knowm LCBO. Other provinces, we don't know. We stay ignorant about the rest of Canada, but similar to alcohol, there are like very few places where you can go and procure it. And when you do so you pay taxes on your goods. They're all like procured by the government. And you as an individual as long as you are, like, consuming your weed products. Like where and when you're allowed to so like, not in a youth park or whatever. Like there are certain rules about like, where and when you can't be smoking like in front of a door, that kind of thing of like a public building, you cannot be like, that's not an illegal practice. If you're in your home and you are smoking weed, you cannot be charged for that. Whereas in the past, before it was legalized, in theory, like you could be charged for just smoking weed in your apartment. In theory.

Kristen  4:47  
I still want to say in theory, now you will not be charged, but the rules are not applied universally.

Prakash  4:56  
I mean, the cops can and will do whatever they want, but it's like legally not a crime. Again, literally the framework of legality means that there are a lot of like rules and stipulations around this. But essentially, legalization brings in theory, like, you know, very theoretical, all persons under the law are equal, as we know, some are more equal than others. But with the legalization comes comes this framework of like a government controlled source to consumer pipeline of product that comes with its own like, system of governance and checks and balances and whatnot. And then things like possession crimes or like use crimes or fines like tend to... I see how you're looking at me, like in theory and like, you know, in very heavy scare quotes, like these, like fines should no longer exist. Of course, if you're like driving and high that continues to be a crime, etc. But like, how we think about alcohol, that like just consuming alcohol in 2022 is like usually not a crime usually, versus in prohibition era, just having it would be a crime. The law has changed that because the government is procuring these items for you that like the general consumption of it is no longer a crime but this is only for weed.

Kristen  6:15  
Before you move on. Because there's also a piece here for me which is the first thing I think of anytime anyone talks about legalization of drugs, which is the legalization of it means that the government now can make money on it. But it doesn't mean that the government is now going to backtrack any of the quote unquote, justice or violence that it has done on people for doing it before now. So it's okay now because the government can make money off of it. But all the people who are making money off of it before are still criminals.

Prakash  6:47  
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of like fuckery in that like, now there's such money for specifically white people to be making profits off of the weed industry. While there are so many Black and brown people in Canada specifically like Black and Indigenous people who are, continue to be in Canadian jails and prisons for... 

Kristen  7:08  
Something that isn't illegal. 

Prakash  7:09  
Things are that are now legal but were a crime back when they were sentenced and so they continue to, a lot of people continue to live out their sentences even though the crime that they had done at the time is not no longer considered a crime. And it's of course like really like a racially tainted this whole industry. Because weed here can only really be procured through like SQDC and like maybe specific dispensers, I'm not really sure, but like this changes from province to province or like if in the US or who knows where it might be different. But I know in the US at least if you have a criminal record you cannot open a dispensary. 

Kristen  7:48  
A criminal record at all? 

Prakash  7:50  
Might be specific to drives but like regardless like all the people who have been burned.

Kristen  7:54  
But regardless because you can get a criminal record for possession for like small amounts of weed and have had to sp- Like I...

Prakash  8:01  
Yeah basically... 

Kristen  8:02  
Okay. 

Prakash  8:03  
If you have any kind of drug related charges you cannot open a dispensary.

Kristen  8:06  
So when it when it wasn't profiting us we told you it was a crime now that it can profit us you are not allowed to partake in the profits because we told you it was a crime before.

Prakash  8:17  
Exactly you should have waited like the rest of us to have you know made use of it. 

Kristen  8:22  
But they did... 

Prakash  8:23  
As if white people aren't like the actually the most common drug users like it doesn't...

Kristen  8:27  
Thank you. That's why I'm like they didn't wait. They just aren't normally charged for it in the way that Black and brown and Indigenous people are.

Prakash  8:34  
Yeah, if I can find the source I'll link in the show notes but even the word marijuana was a word that was created by I'm pretty sure by the US government in order to like perpetuate the weed scare by giving it like a more foreign sounding scary name and to like tie it to like Mexican and like South American communities.

Kristen  8:54  
Anyway, okay. There's just so many levels of like, annoyance in relation to legalization of things.

Prakash  9:03  
Like I recommend people go listen to a podcast about it like specifically there are full series that explore how like the weed industry is specifically in America because they're more like decentralized how how they function because it's fucked up. But also there was like, I'm gonna misremember this, but I believe that there was maybe we talked about it on the show that like a former Toronto Police Chief of Police had invested in a dispensary or an eco weed company. And I'm like, so you spent your career, criminalizing, charging, arresting, and jailing people for weed offenses.

Kristen  9:43  
But now he can make money off of it so... And it's he was making money off of it. He's making money off of it both ways, because his entire salary and justification for his programs and justification for the police budget was because he was protecting people from people who wanted to do drugs, and now he's making money off of those same people who want to do drugs. I am so mad.

Prakash  10:11  
I mean, I guess like, in my personal experience, I feel like the people who were sourcing weed from dealers continue to do so. Because it's often cheaper, and also why not put our money, going back to gentrification. Sure, you could go down to the SQDC around the corner, or, or like, you know, in whatever neighborhood or you could, you know, supply your local dealer, you know, keep the money within the community, you know.

Kristen  10:41  
But there's still a piece there, because your local dealer is not able to, or going through the same channels that the government is. And so does your local dealer have all of the same advantages and all of the things that they should as a business owner?

Prakash  11:00  
No. And the dealer themselves continued to be criminalized so... 

Kristen  11:03  
Exactly. 

Prakash  11:04  
But maybe, also, that dealer now could not even enter the weed game because of their record, most likely. 

Kristen  11:10  
Exactly. 

Prakash  11:11  
So the weed discussions a little bit too in Canada, there's no going back from legalization unless, like, somehow we enter like a prohibition era, which doesn't make sense, because we know, based on 19, what, 1920s prohibition era that did not work, people continued to, like, literally make moonshine, you know, like, whatever... 

Kristen  11:28  
They did it more, there's whole. There are Canadian families, like legacy families, who their entire entire money and wealth comes from providing people with alcohol during prohibition.

Prakash  11:47  
And continue to be billionaires.

Kristen  11:53  
I don't know. But here we are. 

Prakash  11:55  
Here we are. 

Kristen  11:56  
And then actually, that just makes me annoyed. Because the same way that like white families were able to gain wealth during Prohibition, and now are wealthy, why the fuck aren't like Black and brown families who were able to sell weed and now that it's legal, like why can't like there are just systems in place to make sure that we will forever be below white people. Because it should have been the same pipeline, right? Like I'm providing you with this thing before it is legal. And now that it is legal, I can amass wealth and profit, because I've always been providing people with this thing. And they're systematically unable to do that.

Prakash  12:32  
That's actually a very good question. And I'm not really sure if I can think of a good answer for that. I'm just gonna assume that it's because people who were procuring liquor in the time of prohibition were people who already had the means to do so on like, a large scale and like liquor is something that you can produce anywhere, versus I guess, like, weed can grow anywhere in theory, but not really in Canada. That's not truly the case. But something like I don't know like cocaine, like, let's say, like cocaine that comes from Colombia, it's very cheap to buy in Colombia, because it's a very cheap drug to manufacture. But the shipping costs and like the...

Kristen  13:09  
But even aside from all of that, why wasn't there some law in place? Like there's a lot in place that if you have any previous offenses or anything in relation to drugs, you can't do drug things now. Legally, now that it's legal. Why didn't they put that law in place before when white people were the ones accumulating wealth because of this thing that was illegal?

Prakash  13:32  
I mean, you know, why. 

Kristen  13:34  
I know.

Prakash  13:35  
Because those were the same people who were like, you know, procuring the illegal substances are the ones who are also you know, influencing policies and laws and their local police chiefs or whatever, like this whole society is a scam. 

Kristen  13:46  
Yeah, it's just another another way that systemic racism continues to this day. 

Prakash  13:52  
We so now we have like, sort of like visible tangible proof of like several what happens in terms of the legalization of particular drug, in this case, weed that like it continues to harm certain idividuals in terms of restricting their access to their existing market. But also like, the inability to like grow as like a distribution, sort of like service. And people continue to remain in jails and prisons because of past drug offenses and this benefit largely the government in terms of like their ability to increase their own tax revenue. And I guess like people who had the means to like buy fancy weed from like these dispensaries or whatever. 

Prakash  14:33  
Prior to the legalization of weed, there was a movement that was calling for the decriminalization of weed and so I mean, I can extend this to other drugs too, because the movement to decriminalize other drugs continues to exist. Less so to legalize them but more so to to decriminalize them. What this means is that the same way that those like possession charges that we talked about, they might still be there, but often this does not come with a criminal record does not come with jail time. Kind of like if you are, you know, let's say if you if you're found, like drinking on the sidewalk, you know, that is like, not allowed. And so you might get a ticket. But this does not cause you to like accumulate criminal record that will continue to affect your ability to like be employed or whatever. Because actually in Canada until 2017, there was a law that will in 2017, there was a law, maybe it was only Ontario, but I think it's federal, like the Canadian Good Samaritan Drug Overdose Act, something along those lines. I'll double check and I'll write it in the show notes, but this law came in in 2017, that basically made it such that if you or someone that you're with, was ODing on an illegal substance that you could call 911 and you would not be charged for, like, having consumed that drug. So can you imagine that up until 2017. 

Kristen  15:46  
I'm sorry. 

Prakash  15:47  
No, you heard me. 

Kristen  15:47  
Yeah. 

Prakash  15:48  
Up until 2017. If you had like, accidently ODed on fentanyl because you were doing like badly cut coke or something or like heroin, and then you OD or like, whatever you are, you know, whatever, whatever substance that like you, obviously, you have to call 911. Because there's like, at this time that we didn't have like, widely available Narcan or naloxone. And so you call 911 because that is what you're supposed to do. And then you get you get treated and then charged. 

Kristen  16:16  
Great. 

Prakash  16:17  
Or you'd have to, like hide which I've seen before in my work of doing I'm liking street work and harm reduction that like people like will not be forthcoming about like what they have taken, because, or their friends around them will not disclose what's what's going on because they're afraid.

Kristen  16:30  
Yeah, that makes it harder for you to get treatment. It makes it harder for them to fix what's happening. But it also makes sense because we live in a place where it's criminal for you to do these things.

Prakash  16:42  
Yeah, and like we've talked about before, but like a big disclaimer that like we here on the podcast, do not believe that drugs are inherently bad. Nor do we believe that everyone should be like doing them if you do not want to like.

Kristen  16:52  
Yeah, we weren't explicit about it but our like dragging of legalization so far, it's because we don't legalization it not it decriminalization, is it,

Prakash  17:01  
Yeah. And there are a lot of like holes in terms of like the people who do get left out in both of these discussions, because typically, they are about the end user. So it's like just because like maybe you at the end can now call 911 and not be charged for having ODed on a legal substance. But like, the person who like you got it from like the channels in which like you procured this through, like, none of those people are safe still.

Kristen  17:24  
Because both of the options, it's like a it's like a fallacy or whatever both the options are bad options. Like legalization is the option that gives the government avenues to now profit from the thing that they said was bad. Decriminalization says this thing is not bad and you as like, the end user of the thing will not be like, we won't be mad at you for doing the thing. But neither of these options speak to the systems in place that get the thing to you. And so if you don't speak about like the means of production, and like shipping, and like actually getting substances and products to the end user, you don't have to talk about what you're doing to people. You don't have to talk about the governance behind getting those things to people. You don't have to talk about the avenues and the fees and the fines and the potential criminalization of pieces of that puzzle. Because all you're talking about is the end user. It's when you do something on purpose. It's on purpose to obscure like the actual systemic issues that are happening here. Like if you can get people debating about whether you should legalize weed or decriminalize weed nobody's talking about how you're getting the weed and who's profiting from getting the weed to you.

Prakash  18:47  
I think this has been like a really big problem with a lot of like the War on Drugs situations like from you know, decades until now really. That like it if we focus a lot on the end and not on the whole like pipeline system because obviously like cartels and whatnot that are like mass producing these drugs, they're very good at what they do. So the closer you are to the cartel situation then the more sort of like the tighter the reins are. But then also part of the reason why as you talked about before about alcohol or like you know why? Like, why is it that like people like weed dealers continue to like not you know, in this like long era of like basically weed prohibition like you know, when weed was criminalized. How was it that like the producer like the weed dealers like you know, are never rich, you know, they're always like, your next door neighbour or like your cousin's friend who like spends all this money on Jordans but like, doesn't have a car. And you're like, sis get it together. Like, stop, you cannot keep dealing weed on your bicycle. This is not gonna work. Am I speaking from experience? I'm not gonna say. 

Prakash  19:48  
But the reasons why because these people are not controlling the means of distribution and like all trickle down economics, the wealth always stays like at the very top. And so with policing in Canada, and like the war on drugs, locally has been about like how to, like, stop drugs from entering the street. And of course, like the Toronto Police does not have authority to like go investigate Colombia or the US or you know, wherever the drugs are coming from, because they're typically not produced in Canada except for like weed on very small scales. Maybe mushrooms, but like, and again, like the police, as we know, are only really interested in like making money for themselves and maintaining the status quo. And so as long as they can continue to round up like low level dealers, there isn't really an interest in. Not there's no interest, but there isn't really an active effort into like, disrupting the pipeline if they really wanted to, like stop the influx of drugs coming into the country, because again, if they continue to just get small dealers they continue to justify their means of, you know, there needs to be existing.

Kristen  20:53  
It's a self fulfilling prophecy anyway, because they only need to exist and they only need to round up to the small time drug dealers, because they have told us that those drug dealers are bad. And they have told us that drugs are bad. And so to justify drugs being bad, and to justify these dealers being bad, they need to round them up. Like it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Prakash  21:15  
I'm so tired. So that there's a continued effort and activism around decriminalizing all drugs. And I believe that there's some critics that have actually no, I think Uruguay might be the only country that has decriminalized all drugs. And I'm not sure how that's worked out yet. There is like a kind of decriminalisation model that I think started in Sweden and has extended to some of the other like Scandinavian countries. No, I lied that's not about drugs that's about sex work.

Kristen  21:46  
Which we were supposed to talk about, but it's been 27 minutes. 

Prakash  21:48  
Yeah. 

Kristen  21:49  
It's okay, we'll talk about sex work another time.

Prakash  21:51  
To end this thought about decriminalizing other drugs. So the argument in favor of decriminalization is that, like we've seen in other studies, and other countries that have like started doing this work, that when you decriminalize drugs, again, that's only really affects the end user, the person that consuming it at the end, because it's still illegal to like sell and possess in high quantities, but like this will not occur jail time, you might get fined if you get caught. But in countries that have decriminalized drugs, we do see that there are like a lot lower overdoses. That there are fewer deaths. There are more things like needle exchanges. There's a lot more like safe use. People are able to access like legal services.

Kristen  22:33  
Again, self fulfilling prophecy. You've been told it's bad. And so there's shame attached to it. There's secrecy attached to it because you're told you are not allowed to do it. As soon as you're allowed to do it, you will then be able to do it more safely. Because you won't feel like you have to hide. Like I just, it makes sense to me that there's less overdoses and there's more avenues to protect yourself and to make sure that like your consumption is safe consumption, because there isn't immediately a, well, it is inherently unsafe, because I've been told I shouldn't be doing this.

Prakash  23:06  
I had a thought then I like forgot my brain. What did you just say?

Kristen  23:10  
Honestly shout out to us for being able to record today at all.

Prakash  23:14  
So clearly we did not get around talking about the debate between decriminalizing or legalizing sex work, which will save for another episode our conclusion is that clearly, as you see with weed legalization, it definitely does have some benefits for some people, but does not have the sort of like reparative structures embedded that we would hope to see. Like the immediate release of people who have been in jail. Like the way that a governance is created around the government like procurement and dissemination of like formerly illicit products means that like there are more barriers to entry for the communities who have historically been the ones to have like procured this for the population. And so there is a sort of, like, inherently racist, it will it has created a racist industry, essentially. 

Prakash  24:03  
These are just things to be aware of, as the years go on, I think we're gonna see the discussion come up frequently about other kinds of drugs as they're like, studies around like mushrooms and LSD therapies and like that apparently ketamine, I can't remember exactly but something about ketamine, like a version of ketamine it's like used in like, Alzheimer's therapies. And so, so just just like, just like keep an open mind that like yes we've all been told that drugs are very bad, but again, like, alcohol was banned. Oh, I remember my earlier thought, which was about alcohol, is that like, you know, if you're still like stuck thinking about if you decriminalize things or things become legalized, and more people will do it. Like, we know that this is not the case. Because when you look at other countries that are you okay?

Kristen  24:50  
I'm sorry, I'm just like, why is more people doing it a reason to not let people do it? Like what is inherently wrong with more people doing the thing?

Prakash  25:00  
Kristen, if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it?

Kristen  25:05  
Prakash, I want to throw my shoe at you again. Oh my god. 

Prakash  25:10  
No.

Kristen  25:10  
Because the Okay, okay, okay, no. Because that argument is so annoying, because it assumes that all of those people are just fucking lemmings. It removes the individuality of all of the people who have so far jumped off the bridge. Is that that's your argument that we're all lemmings?

Prakash  25:31  
That's my argument as the person being like,

Kristen  25:33  
I know, I'm arguing with you as the person, would you...

Prakash  25:38  
But also, if all my friends jumped off a bridge, I probably would too. Either it's fun or they're all they know something I do not know. And...

Kristen  25:43  
There's a reason that you're all jumping off the bridge. So like, I don't know. 

Prakash  25:47  
There's something back there or something. I don't know. But I'm gonna follow them. 

Kristen  25:50  
Thank you. 

Prakash  25:50  
I'm not trying to be here without my friends, you know, it's tough enough as it is.

Kristen  25:54  
I'm sorry. But if all those people were Black, and they were jumping off the bridge, they're running from something. And you should also run of the bridge, like, I will.

Prakash  25:59  
Have you seen that TikTok of Black people running. And then people just keep joining because they're like, Oh, my God.

Kristen  26:03  
Yes! Because we're like, you're running from a threat. Let's go. 

Prakash  26:07  
Anyway, we have to stop this but all this to say, if you think either access or people doing it, is gonna increase people's usages of, of drugs. Like, we know, this is not true based on alcohol consumption. When you look at countries that have younger drinking ages, they tend to have less rates of alcoholism versus life and more like, Canada, the United States have drinking ages of 21.

Kristen  26:32  
Because again, they're not shaming people into submission around the thing. They're letting people be people and make decisions for themselves.

Prakash  26:43  
Yeah. So if we just like, embrace this in our culture to be like, hey, keep an open mind, including all of us to be like, because I too, have had, like, certain apprehension about certain drugs, that that one's too far. But I'm like, is it though? Like, maybe I'm just, I've never done it. I'm uninformed. And also it's none of my business if people want to do it. So like,

Kristen  27:01  
That's, that's really important. It's none of your business. If somebody else wants to do this. 

Prakash  27:06  
It's none of my business, but I can do my duty as a citizen to make sure that if they want to do it, they can do it in a way that is safe possible. Yeah. So keep an eye out for discussions I'll say emerge in society because they will. And...

Kristen  27:20  
Keep an open mind as these discussions are happening. 

Prakash  27:23  
Yes. And we'll see you in some number of weeks to talk about this again, about sex work. Similar but different. And we'll talk about it. 

Kristen  27:33  
Yeah. Yeah. 

Prakash  27:34  
Okay. So with that, Stay in the know.

Both  27:36  
Bye.

Kristen  27:44  
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